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Old Nov 14, 2010, 11:15 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by andysly5 View Post
Matt, I just don't think the KX is a better camera than the T2i. Yes, it's a better "value" considering the lower price. However, what I am searching for is the best camera/lens setup for IQ in my budget.
For low light performance, I have NO NO NO NO doubt the k-x is the better choice, followed by Sony A550. It just so happens you can get into the K-X with TOP notch 50mm f/1.4 FA for about the same price as the others. In terms of the best glass for the buck, The k-x + 2x Kit lenses 18-55 & 55mm-300mm and an 50mm f/1.4 FA. It also happens to have 720P video.

However, if you want to go Canon
http://slickdeals.net/forums/showthr...6967&t=2379051
"Canon T2i w/ 18-55mm Lens ($849.00) + 55-250mm ($207.99) - $200 discount = $857
Canon T2i w/ 18-55mm Lens ($849.00) + 75-399mm ($134.90) - $150 discount = $834"

[ETA]
Now if budget actually permits, the K-R is going to have auto focusing points visible in the view finder. The K-X will not.
And both Sony and Pentax are going to offer body based image stabilization. Whether the K-X is adequate in live view mode I'll have to see, but I should note that near as I'm aware the K-X doesn't auto focus while in 720P mode.

Last edited by MattZuke; Nov 14, 2010 at 11:23 PM. Reason: Added k-r
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Old Nov 15, 2010, 8:06 AM   #12
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Thanks Matt.

Being that I don't know a whole lot about the technology inside these cameras I want to try to find out what it is about the kx/kr that make them so much better in low light.

The common consumer belief is higher mp = better performance overall. But, I know that is disputed. Does the fact that fewer mp's are being crammed onto the sensor mean more light for each pixel?
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Old Nov 15, 2010, 8:12 AM   #13
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I may have just found the answer to the "why such good low light" question. Found this from a review on Suite101.com.... (http://www.suite101.com/content/pent...mera-a304404):

Even though Pentax are using a newly developed Sony sensor it still has the same number of megapixels as the old K-x. This is despite engineers making many other upgrades with the K-r over its predecessor the K-x. This move away from maximizing the megapixel count indicates the maturing of the digital sensor technology as it gets to the point of diminishing returns in improved image quality with more megapixels.
For most photographers for uses such as web display and sharing and common enlargement prints 12.4 megapixels is more than enough resolution to produce a high quality print.
Instead the research efforts of the Sony engineers has gone into reducing the digital noise at even higher ISO settings, live view and video capabilities of the sensor chip as well as increasing the frame rate. These bring a greater benefit to DSLR photographers than trying to squeeze in more megapixels when considered in terms of a price versus performance trade off.


Read more at Suite101: Pentax Kr DSLR Camera http://www.suite101.com/content/pent...#ixzz15MNtiPAO
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Old Nov 15, 2010, 8:54 AM   #14
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I shoot a k-x and a t1i, and not the k-x is not better then the t2i. I have play with the k-r and it is close but still not better then the t2i very close to the t1i. But both pentax still does not focus as fast as the canon's as canon still have the better AF system. Also the pentax is very good in noise but clips details for that. Canon has better pixel sharpness with the higher noise abover 1600iso.

The pentax's are very good camera. But they are not as good as the canon when action is needed. And from 100-1600iso where most photog shoot, the noise difference is next to none. Yes the pentax does do better above 1600iso. But pass 3200iso it is still noise, and the photos is not great with the pentax also. 6400, 12800 is meant for a pinch, and 25600 is all but useless. You really need to put things into prospective with all these stat sheet numbers.

Here is a real world test of the k-x against a t1i
http://forums.steves-digicams.com/ge...canon-t1i.html
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Old Nov 15, 2010, 9:08 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andysly5 View Post
Thanks Matt.

Being that I don't know a whole lot about the technology inside these cameras I want to try to find out what it is about the kx/kr that make them so much better in low light.

The common consumer belief is higher mp = better performance overall. But, I know that is disputed. Does the fact that fewer mp's are being crammed onto the sensor mean more light for each pixel?
Morning Andy,

Sensors are composed of Pixels, that are essentially dots of light sensitivity arranged in a large matrix (rows and columns). Large sensors are better, than small ones - in that there is more area. Large sensors having the same number of pixels as the small sensors are much better since the pixels in the large sensor are much larger.

When you cram a lot of pixels into a sensor, and then increase the sensitivity (higher ISO) then when the light hits a sensor, and the pixel absorbs / records the light. However, in doing so the pixel generates a lot of noise, which spills over to the adjacent pixels - hence "noisy" images. Rather than getting a well defined point of light, you tend to get a blob. This translates to a picture that looks very gritty.

Think about it this way - downtown condo - noisy neighbors with their stereo cranked up. Lots of complaining neighbors. Out in the country side, with everyone on 5 acre lots, rock band in the basement blasting away, the neighbors never know. Same thing with camera sensors.

So with Pentax staying at 12MP, and making other improvements in terms of handling higher ISO speeds (better for low light) - noise control, better dynamic range (better in recording wider ranges of contrasts and colors), etc. There is where the difference is.

It might seem elementary that 18MP is better than 12MP, however to double the pixels in both the horizontal and vertical axis of the sensor, the pixel count would increase by a factor of 4x. So to double the pixel density of a 12MP sensor you would need to have a 48MP sensor. So you can see by that measurement the difference between 12MP and 18MP is really very minor.

Also, the cameras you are seeing today, probably exceed the capabilities of 98% of the photographers. The technical details, as they transition into improving the skills of the many folks taking pictures is becoming somewhat difficult to quantify. So a lot of the specifications everyone anguishes over become pretty trivial (and yes - I will get flamed over that one).

You have to step back and ask if a particular set of specifications are both meaningful to how I am going to use the camera, and if that they are going to make a real difference.


Last edited by interested_observer; Nov 15, 2010 at 9:11 AM.
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Old Nov 15, 2010, 9:49 AM   #16
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Hi I went from an A640 to t2i/550d never regretted it it is a great camera I have added the 55-250 and 50 1.8 good price from buydig, I also have a nissin di622 flash. This covers my needs for time being. I really think a flash will be needed at christmas as low light means slow shutter speeds and if you want some good pics then you will need one IMHO. Dont use it direct use bounce it will give better lighting for you.
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Old Nov 15, 2010, 1:09 PM   #17
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The common consumer belief is higher mp = better performance overall. But, I know that is disputed. Does the fact that fewer mp's are being crammed onto the sensor mean more light for each pixel?
As others have pointed out raw MP is rather minor. IMHO good glass beats MP hince the recommendation for a ~$300 50mm prime vs a $100 one.

The more extensive thread on here address what I've observed personally in terms of my lame amateur tests, esp indoor shots. And I'll totally have to agree the Canons are much better at auto focusing. I'll have to reevaluate noise & sharpness vs low noise / less detail.

I can say with some confidence that I'd rather print an image a3+ from a 10mp Nikon with a 85mm 1.8 than many of the kit zooms in other offerings at higher MP.
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Old Nov 15, 2010, 1:49 PM   #18
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Alright - let's talk Turkey. I happen to have a 4 1/2 year old as well. Here is my advice:

Any of the latest DSLRs are going to be capable of what you want to shoot. Is the AF tracking on the Canons better than the Pentax? Most likely? For what you're doing though it just won't matter. Much in the same way the Pentax high ISO performance is better but not enough that it's going to matter.

My suggestion is you're going to want to start off with kit lens plus "kit" telephoto and an external flash. The external flash will improve all your indoor shots - and the focus assist beam will enable you to use the kit lens(es) with success indoors. A 50mm 1.4 or other "fast" lens is a nice to have. But the reality is there are too many instances where there still isn't enough light to use them effectively and/or you actually want more in focus than a lens like that can deliver

But you also need to understand that a DSLR is NOTO a magic point and shoot camera. So you and your wife are going to take great photos and really bad photos with it. There are just situations where the camera is going to guess wrong and without an understanding of photography you or your wife are not going to "get it right".

But I think Pentax Kx, Canon T1i, Nikon D5000 or Sony with 2 kit lens AND external flash is the way to start off. Down the road you can get creative with shallow DOF - but it's a poor substitute for external flash from the get-go.

So, if you and your wife can handle the various cameras go with whichever feels best. If your wife still has brand issues, buy whichever brand she feels comfortable with - because all of them are capable - and these types of brain worms can sabotage the success of the product in her hands.
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Old Nov 15, 2010, 2:26 PM   #19
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All of you guys (and gals) have been great with your advice. I've spent most of my working day (sorry boss!) reading all about the various options and absorbing this great info.

At this moment I am strongly considering the K-X with the 18-55mm and the 50-200mm. I was also looking at adding a fast prime like the 35mm DA l F2.4. But John has me rethinking that. You think I'd be better off indoors with a flash instead of a prime?

I don't think my final decision will be made until at least next week. Wife and I are both on vacation so I think we might travel into NYC to pay B&H a visit. That way she can hold each camera and give them a try.
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Old Nov 15, 2010, 2:43 PM   #20
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i think you would be better off with the flash than the prime for now, for the reasons john mentioned.

i would be very careful going with the brand that the wife does not like. it doesnt matter if there is absolutely no good reason for it, but if she goes into it with a negative opinion you are fighting an uphill battle. unless a trip to b&h can appease these fears.
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