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Old Dec 24, 2011, 11:32 PM   #21
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The size of a 60D with a tammy 18-270 on 50 1.4 vs a epl-1 with a 14-150 and 20 1.7. Big difference. Allot smaller allot lighter, and it is all simpler to pack with carry on's and running through airports. I do that allot, and I will tell you even with a t1i, it is still allot bulkier then the compact body m4/3. And for my wife who flies even more then me, easily 150k miles a year. It makes a huge difference that extra size and weight.

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Originally Posted by peripatetic View Post
The m4/3 systems are nice, but so close to your DSLR that unless you are selling your Canon I don't see why you would ever use one.

As I understand it you are looking for a complement, not a replacement.
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Old Dec 24, 2011, 11:34 PM   #22
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I take dxo marks for interesting trivial info. They really favor nikon heavily. As there was comparison of nikon and canon sensor test not done with the dxo work flow that gave the canon the advantage. So is just ok info, but at the end of the day. Not really worth any real info.

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The DXOMark scores are compelling.

The sensor is fine for 8x12 prints up to ISO800.

It loses 1/2 stop in low light to the Panasonic sensors. I would take that happily for the fact that I think it's a much better camera than any of the Panasonics or Olympus m4/3.

Get a copy of DXO Optics to automagically improve things.

Anecdotes from camera stores are not compelling.
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Old Dec 24, 2011, 11:42 PM   #23
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Olympus is not going anywhere, their pens are selling well and have a solid hold in the mirrorless market.

The ep3 or epl2 is not that much behind the g3 or the new gh2 senors. At the end of the day, the iso of the g3 is good to 1600, the pens are good to 1250. That is 1/3 a stop. Not a big difference. As olympus was able to out preform the older panny in iso because they reworked their AA filter giving it better iso performance.

I shoot canon dslr, but I find the olympus package the better travel system, and their lens option is very well suited for the traveler. And they do are developing more pro level m4/3 lenses with the 25 f2 .

With the changing setting the epl1 was a slightly slower. But once you get the muscle memory down, i can do the change of aperture in Av model without looking or ev up and down.

The ep3 with the dials is very simple to change settings like a dslr.

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Thanks Phil for the pictures, and all for your help.
Peri, why do you think Panasonic and olympus are not as good cameras? I am asking because I have no experience with them.
So far I think I am leaning toward the m4/3 system, just have narrowed down to which brand/camera.
Is the new Panasonic sensor (g3/gx1) much better than Oly epl3/epm/ep3?
So far I have this list of pros/cons:
Panasonic
+ newer sensor
+ touch screen in all models(i am thinking maybe it is easier to handle menu driven cameras with no much buttons this way?)
- heavier/bigger lenses
- not so good colors and jpeg
Oly
+more compact/lighter lenses
+better jpeg and colors
+IBIS
-if I go with pen mini, how fast is to change settings with no buttons?
-older sensor
-worst iso compared to Panasonic newe (but how much worse??)
-uncertain company future??

Thanks for bearing with such a long post, but I always value your input. You have helped me greatly in the past and have learned a lot just by hanging on this site.
Have a Happy Holidays and a great New Year...

Marķa
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Old Dec 27, 2011, 6:55 PM   #24
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Thanks to all. I still have a couple of days before I have to make a decision, wheather wchich one to get or to just wait and see.
I have been doing some more internet research and came across some IBIS problemas with the EPM1... does anyone have input on it? If it is a widespread problem, does it also affect EPL3 and EP3?

Thanks
MARIA
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Old Dec 28, 2011, 2:40 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shoturtle View Post
I take dxo marks for interesting trivial info. They really favor nikon heavily. As there was comparison of nikon and canon sensor test not done with the dxo work flow that gave the canon the advantage. So is just ok info, but at the end of the day. Not really worth any real info.
You are confusing DXO Optics and DXOMark. The latter is the only scientifically-based independent evaluation of sensors available. They only favor Nikon because at the moment the Nikon/Sony sensors are slightly better. A few years ago they favored Canon because they had the advantage.

No-one of any significance disputes their results; and because they publish their methodology if you had the resources and the skill you could run the same experiments.

If you claim their results "are not worth any real info" - well everyone has their opinion. But it's tantamount to saying that the facts are not important to you because you have already made up your mind.

To think that Olympus is not seriously threatened as a company is also ignoring the facts.

If you want to say that you like the balance of features, sensor size, system breadth and carry weight of the m4/3 cameras well that is perfectly fine. But it's ridiculous to say that m4/3 is better than N1 because of low light performance and better than APS-C because of small size. It's equally true it is worse than N1 because of size and worse than APS-C because of low-light.

Every camera system has a balance of features, and different cameras suit different people. All you can reasonably do is help describe those features, share your experience and let the OP make up their own mind.
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Old Dec 28, 2011, 4:25 PM   #26
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Yes the dxo testing is all down in raw with workflow. And it can be affected by the processing. No one is contesting it, but I do not put all that much into the testing. It is still nice to know info, but it really is not as earthmoving as some make it out to be. 1/3 of a stop is not that ground breaking between canon an Nikon. Or the oly and penny. But the 1 stop between m4/3 and 2.23 is allot more.

I just take it to the another prospective then you about compactness. And if compactness and lightness is important the difference between a compact dslr and a compact m4/3 is huge.

I do not think oly is going out of business anytime soon, and if they do leave camera, someone will buy their camera division. As m4/3 is not going anywhere. As it is very well established, and does have more offering then the stand alone brands of Sony and samsung. Minolta sold to Sony and you can still use minolta glass on Sony body.
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Old Dec 29, 2011, 4:04 AM   #27
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Yes, DXO testing is RAW.

Size matters - of course it does. Shape and balance matters too. This is why I use my Fuji X100 for 95% of my shooting and my 5DMkII mostly stays in the cupboard. The X100 has an APS-C sensor and has size and shape/balance advantages over m4/3 too, and it has the best viewfinder of any digital camera ever made. But it's big disadvantage for some people is that it has a fixed 35mm equivalent lens. That's not a problem for me, but for many it is a deal breaker.

Focus speed matters.
The viewfinder matters.
The lenses matter.
Price matters.

It's all about compromise. For you 1/3 stop doesn't matter but 1 stop is too much. Why? Maybe a better way of looking at it is how high an ISO would you use? Is ISO800 for an 8x12 print enough? Just arbitrarily selecting a cut-off of 1 stop advantage is silly. It depends on how you are going to use the camera.

m4/3 size is fine but APS-C size is too big. Why? What about the NEX - is that too big?

Have a detailed look at the V1 and EPL3 side by side on DXOMark.

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Cam...rand3%29/Canon

Notice that the overall score is even. Because the V1 has slight advantage at low ISO and the EPL3 has slight advantage at high ISO.

The differences across most of the ISO range are very small. Even at high ISO you don't lose on every measure, it is mostly dynamic range that suffers on the V1. Maybe the OP would find IQ at ISO800 acceptable on both cameras, and ISO1600 unacceptable on both cameras. This could easily be the case. In fact I think that is my feeling. For an 8x12 print I would use both m4/3 and 1 series at ISO800, but wouldn't be happy going higher. Even though ISO3200 on the m4/3 might be as good as ISO1600 on the 1 - neither is good enough.

The main lesson from DXO is that the differences are usually smaller than the other websites would lead you to believe.
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Old Dec 29, 2011, 4:43 AM   #28
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Have you seen the nex 18-200 on the nex. It is a dslr lens on the plate, not very compact and light.

If you want small and compact with good iq, m4/3 is still the better system.

I do not contest ff has an iq advantage to apsc or apsc over 4/3 or 4/3 ove 1.1/67 or 1/1.67 over 1/2.23. But it is all a compromise. If you want a light and compact system first, with good image quality up to 1600iso. The m4/3 is a excellent option over the Nikon and Pentax mirror less option. If size is everything and iq not as important then the tiny sensor. If iq is everything and you are willing to accept the wight and size of the larger lenses, the nx or nex are excellent options. Each has the compromises to be made.

Some do not want to haul allot of gear, but still want quality photos.
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