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Old May 30, 2012, 10:54 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by o.liver View Post
...the ease of use (meaning acting like my old film slr) is just as important to me as most other features...
I'm about 60 days late in posting an announcement about this camera capable of using Minolta MC/MD mount manual focus lenses. ;-)

Seagull D55

Make sure to click on the logo for Shutter-Box Photographic equipment at the bottom of the page to get more information about it (that links to another page).
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Old May 30, 2012, 10:59 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by ramcewan View Post
given your existing manual focus lenses I would suggest considering a mirror less camera such as the Olympus OM-D EM-5, Olympus Pen series, Panasonic G3/GX1, or Sony Nex 5N and up.

For $15-$20 you can put your MF glass on these cameras and be shooting no problem. You control the aperture and the camera can do the metering and shutter or you can control those two from the camera.
I'm not good with this type of thing. Could you explain what I'd need to make this happen?
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Old May 30, 2012, 11:26 AM   #13
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I'm not good with this type of thing. Could you explain what I'd need to make this happen?
due to the very short register distance on mirror less cameras many manual focus legacy lenses can be used with good results. The adapter is basically a metal tube with the MD mount on on side and the corresponding mirror-less mount on the other end (micro four thirds, Nex, Samung NX, or Nikon 1).

The lens connects to the adapter and viola you can now put it on your digital camera.

Take a look at these links to see what the adapter actually looks like.

micro four thirds (Panasonic and Olympus)
http://www.rainbowimaging.biz/shop/p...?id_product=56

sony Nex
http://www.amazon.com/RainbowImaging.../dp/B003XQ6FDE

Samsung NX
http://www.rainbowimaging.biz/shop/p...?id_product=76


You still set aperture and focus with the lens and then you can either let the camera pick ISO/shutter speed or set one or both yourself.

The Nex series has a nice feature called focus-peaking that helps to catch focus and on the Olympus/Panasonic cameras you have a zoom function to help with focus (either an external electronic viewfinder like the VF-2 or an internal electronic viewfinder is helpful as well).



For example here's one camera with three different mount type legacy lenses.

Here's a Konica Hexanon 40mm f1.8 attached to my Olympus E-PL2 the adapter used was for Konica AR


E-pl2 with hexanon 40mm by ramcewan, on Flickr

Here's a Russian Tair 3 300mm f4.5 on my E-PL2, the adapter being m42


Tair 3 by ramcewan, on Flickr

and here's a Russian Jupiter-8 50mm f2.0 on my E-PL2, the adapter being m39

Jupiter 8 by ramcewan, on Flickr
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Old May 30, 2012, 11:35 AM   #14
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Basically, you'd use a mechanical adapter to mate your lens with a different camera body than it's designed for. But, because there is no communications between the camera and the lens, the camera won't know what aperture you're shooting at (which you'd control using the Aperture Ring on the lens. Then, once you set your aperture, the camera's meter can help set shutter speed for you.

What lenses do you have now?

Unless they're very special to you, you may be better off buying new ones that are designed specifically for one of the newer camera models, so that you don't need to worry about using an adapter.

For one thing, your lenses will appear to be longer (more apparent magnification) on one of the camera models we're discussing.

For example, on a Micro 4/3s type camera, if you multiply the focal length by 2x, that will tell you what focal length would give you the same angle of view on a 35mm camera. IOW, a 50mm lens on a camera using an Olympus 4/3s sensor size would give you the same angle of view you'd have using a 100mm lens on a 35mm camera (50mm x 2 = 100mm). That's because the camera's sensor is much smaller than 35mm film. As a result, it's not using the entire image circle being projected by the lens (only use a smaller section in the middle instead).

With one of the Sony NEX models, the sensors are a little larger (APS-C size), but they're still smaller than 35mm film. So, you'd multiply by 1.5x to see how angle of view compares to a 35mm camera. For example, a 50mm lens on a Sony NEX model would give you the same angle of view you'd have using a 75mm lens on a 35mm camera (50mm x 1.5 = 75mm).

That can be good if you want a longer focal length. But, it can be bad if you can't back up far enough to get what you want into the frame.

That's why most kit lenses for camera's with an APS-C size sensor (like the Sony NEX models) start out at around 18mm. For example, an 18-55mm lens on a Sony NEX camera would give you the same angle of view as a 27-83mm lens on a 35mm camera (multiply by 1.5x to see how angle of view compares).

Or, on an Olympus model, you may see something like a 14-45mm lens as a kit lens. Since you have to multiply by 2x to see how angle of view compares, a 14-45mm lens on a camera using a 4/3s size sensor would have the same angle of view you'd get using a 28-90mm lens on a 35mm camera.

Another issue can be lens coatings on the older manual focus lenses and the way they work with the reflective characteristics of modern imaging sensors used in Digital Cameras.

Although they can be fine for many subjects, you may find a bit more veiling flare than desired if shooting into brighter light sources because the coatings are not as good on some older lenses (giving you a more washed out look to images than you may have using a more modern lens design on a digital camera).

Now, many people love to use a wide variety of manual focus lenses on newer digital cameras via an adapter.

But, you may want to let members know exactly what lens models you have for better informed responses, as it may be easier to replace them (and keep in mind that there are a number of used lenses on the market, too -- for example, any Minolta Autofocus Lens will work on a Sony dSLR model with no adapter needed).
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Old May 30, 2012, 11:45 AM   #15
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...For one thing, your lenses will appear to be longer (more apparent magnification) on one of the camera models we're discussing...
I find this to be misleading in your wording. The difference is in field of view which is not the same as magnification, just a pet peeve of mine because people get confused and go off and think that the 200mm legacy lens they have is going to bring them as close to the subject as a 400mm lens. The more accurate way to describe it is to imagine taking a 9x11 taken with a 35mm camera and then cutting the picture to 4.5x5.5, this is what a crop sensor does.

If you then take that 4.5x5.5 and enlarge it to be 9x11 and compare it to the original 9x11 picture the subject will be twice as big but at half the resolution of the original 35mm 9x11, this is where the idea of apparent magnification comes from.
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Old May 30, 2012, 11:59 AM   #16
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Thanks, guys. This is really good information--a lot to process. I very much appreciate your wisdom.

It sounds like a good solution might be to grab one of these cameras that can adapt to my older lenses (I'll have to wait until I return home to get specific models). That way, I can use the old lenses with an adapter until I have more money to spend on lenses. Is this a good long term solution? If so, which camera line/manufacturer would be the best bet for long term products and support?
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Old May 30, 2012, 12:05 PM   #17
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I've never liked the term Crop. ;-)

If you use a smaller sensor or film size, the angle of view will be narrower (more apparent magnification) for any given focal length.

If you use a larger sensor or film size, the angle of view will be wider (less apparent magnification) for any given focal length.

The only reason to even have a so called crop factor or focal length multiplier is so that users familiar with using lenses on 35mm cameras have a better understanding of how angle of view compares using a DSLR with a sensor smaller than 35mm film.

If 35mm cameras were not so popular, there would be no need to use them at all.

Since you have the same lenses for use on 35mm or smaller sensors with DSLR models from Nikon, Canon, Olympus and Sony giving angle of view is more difficult (since you don't know the camera the lens will be used on with most designs).

Nikon started giving Angle of View for DX lenses assuming an APS-C size sensor would be used (since their DX series are similar to Canon's EF-S series lenses, or KM/Sony's DT lenses, or Tamron's Di II lenses, or Sigma's DT lenses) and they will only work on a camera with a sensor smaller than 35mm film without vignetting).

For example, the Nikon specs for the widest angle of view for the Nikkor 18-70mm f/3.5-4.5G ID-IF AF-S DX lens is shown as 76 degrees at a focal length of 18mm (as you would expect when a lens with a focal length of 18mm is used on a DSLR model with a smaller sensor).

If you look at a non-DX lens designed for a 35mm camera, the angle of view shown in the specifications for a given focal length assumes it will be used on a 35mm model. For example, the Nikkor 18-35mm f/3.5-4.5D ED-IF AF lens (non DX lens) shows an angle of view in it's specifications of 100 degrees at a focal length of 18mm (as you would expect when an 18mm lens is used on a 35mm camera).

The focal length at the widest setting for both lenses is identical. What changes is the angle of view, depending on the size of the sensor/film the lens is being used with.

If you used the non-DX lens (designed for 35mm cameras) on a Nikon DSLR, the angle of view would be identical to the DX lens (digital only lens design) for the same focal length setting.

Since we have lenses that can be used on cameras with more than one sensor or film size, it's tougher to give angle of view for these (although they could give multiple angle of views in the specs, showing it for multiple sensor/film sizes).

If 645 format was more popular than 35mm, we may have be seeing "focal length multipliers" to help medium format users make the transition to 35mm, so that users could understand that a lens will have more apparent magnification (narrower angle of view) for any given focal length when used on a 35mm camera versus a medium format model. ;-)

For example, using multipliers like this for angle of view comparisons:

645 focal length x 0.62 = equivalent 35mm focal length
6x6 focal length x 0.55 = equivalent 35mm focal length
6x7 focal length x 0.48 = equivalent 35mm focal length

Angle of View = 2 * ArcTan(Film Dimension / (2 * Focal Length * (1 + Magnification)))

If you use a lens designed for a given format (as in the new "digital only" lenses designed for a DSLR with a smaller sensor), you don't crop it (as the image circle is designed to match up to the film or sensor). But, you still have to use the exact same formulas for angle of view comparisons for a given focal length lens.

For example, if you use a 50mm lens on a 645 format camera, you'll have a wider angle of view (less apparent magnification) compared to a 50mm lens on a 35mm camera (it would be like using a 31mm lens on a 35mm camera from an angle of view perspective). You'll have a wider angle of view on 645 film.

Or, to put it another way, you'd have a narrower angle of view (more apparent magnification) using any given focal length lens on a 35mm camera versus a medium format model. You'd need to multiply the focal length of a lens used on a 35mm camera by around 1.7x to compare to the focal length needed on a 645 camera for the same angle of view.

A lens designed for a 35mm camera will behave the same as a digital only lens of the same focal length on the same DSLR model from an angle of view perspective (apparent magnification, what you see on the resulting image).

You'd still need to multiply the actual focal length of the lens by 1.5x (or 1.6x for Canon models) if a lens is used on a DSLR with an APS-C size sensor (or 2X using a 4/3s size sensor) to see what focal length you'd need on a 35mm camera for the same angle of view, even if the lens was designed with an image circle size that matches up to the sensor format.

Where the confusion comes in, is because lenses designed for a 35mm camera have a larger image circle compared to lenses designed for a DSLR with an APS-C size sensor. So, use of the term "crop" became common to describe what angle of view you end up with for a given focal length, since users are more familiar with 35mm cameras.

In the case of a lens originally designed for a 35mm camera, the extra space in the image circle just isn't used with a DSLR using an APS-C (or smaller Olympus 4/3) sensor.

Again, if 35mm cameras were not so popular, there would be no need to use multipliers at all. But, they can help 35mm camera owners get a better understanding of how angle of view compares to a given focal length lens being used on a 35mm camera.
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Old May 30, 2012, 12:27 PM   #18
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Whatever camera body you mount them on, your old lenses will still be manual focus (duh) and manual exposure. While many people have been pleased to use older lenses on newer bodies, I suggest that you get at least one AF/AE lens for your camera. I think unless you've got something special (like the ROKKOR 58mm f/1.2) you'll gradually increase your collection of AF/AE lenses and give up on your MF/ME lenses.

So don't jump into anything thinking you'll be able to make good use of your old lenses; get a system you'll be otherwise pleased with, and if you can adapt your old lenses to it, then so much the better.
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Old May 30, 2012, 12:41 PM   #19
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...Again, if 35mm cameras were not so popular, there would be no need to use multipliers at all. But, they can help 35mm camera owners get a better understanding of how angle of view compares to a given focal length lens being used on a 35mm camera.
P.S.

Fortunately, it's not as confusing when looking at digital cameras with non removal lenses on them. Otherwise, you'd have lots of different multipliers to remember because of a wider variety of sensor sizes.

For example, if you look at Nikon Coolpix P510 Review, this camera has a lens that gives you the same angle of view as a 24-1000mm lens on a 35mm camera.

But, the actual focal length of the lens on it is 5.0mm at it's wider zoom setting, moving up to a 180mm actual focal length at it's full telephoto end. So, you'd need to multiply the actual focal length by approx. 5.6x to see how angle of view compares (what lens you'd need on a 35mm camera to get the same angle of view), because it's using a very small 1/2.3" sensor.

There's no cropping involved. You just have a narrower angle of view (more apparent magnification) for a given focal length lens on a camera with a smaller sensor or film size, or a wider angle of view (less apparent magnification) for a given focal length lens on a camera with a larger sensor or film size.

Camera manufacturers advertise the 35mm equivalent focal length (from an angle of view perspective) to make buying a fixed lens digital camera easier.

But, for cameras using removable lenses, you'd need to do the calculations yourself to determine what focal length lens you'd need to use on a 35mm camera to get the same angle of view
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Old May 30, 2012, 1:28 PM   #20
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JimC - I am fine with everything except the term "apparent magnification", it just rubs me wrong that people go away thinking if I have a smaller sensor my lens will have more "apparent magnification". The focal length of a lens is fixed no matter what camera it is mounted to, likewise it's ability to magnify a distant object is fixed no matter what camera it is mounted to. The difference between 35mm (or full frame), a APS-C, MFT and even point and shoot is more akin to the size of the window you look out of, the window being biggest on 35mm (full frame), then APS-C, then MFT, then P&S. The scene on the otherside of the window is the same distance away and magnified the same amount, it's just the window you're looking through is smaller.

I find this a more useful way of explaining it.

Granted if noise did not exist and the laws of physics did not apply to light waves a smaller sensor would equal more "apparent magnification" in the same way that zooming in on a picture taken with a full frame camera does, however as we all know the further you zoom in on that picture the more noise and less detail is visible.

That is why a 9x11 print made from a FF camera with a 50mm lens is not the same as a 9x11 print made from a 2x crop sensor camera using a 25mm lens. Yes they may appear identical in field of view but you will have more finer detail with the FF using the 50mm (assuming equal MP).
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