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Old Sep 6, 2004, 5:58 PM   #51
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Well, I am the last guy to tell people to risk their photos-- but I've taken 1000 photos with my plain old cheap Sandisk card without a glitch.

The G500 is a different animal than the G400, and it may very well be well advised to heed the card warnings. But maybe not- card warnings do not accompany the G400, which I think is a better choice than the G500 anyway (here we go again...!)

The Panasonic 256MB card sells for $67 plus shipping on Provantage.com I doubt that a much better price can be found anywhere. The 512MB card, however goes for a whopping $251 !! sheesh. These cards write at 1.2MB per second. SLOWWWWWWWWWWWW guess my 16MB Panasonic card that came with the camera was not an exception at being as slow as a turtle. http://www.provantage.com/pr_72642.htm

I've seen the same capacity 256MB SanDisk (regular) card all over town on sale this weekend for $40. And mine has never failed, after a thousand pictures. I got mine at Costco for $45 not on sale. And the transfer speed is nearly matches their more expensive Ultra card per my own careful tests.

The Ultra II has >>>9MB seconds write speed<<<- compare this to the Panasonic 1.2MB write speed.... Provantage sells the 256MB Ultra II card for $48 for 256MB Ultra II card and $76 for the 512.

Well, YOU decide if you want to shell out $215 for a slow 512MB Panasonic "officially approved" card....! Or $67 for the 256MB Panasonic.

By the way-- I do not work for Minolta, or any camera company or accessories, or Provantage--


Neil
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Old Sep 6, 2004, 7:13 PM   #52
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Neal:

The specs that Provantage has listed are incorrect for the larger Panasonic cards. You can see the correct specs on Panasonic's web site:

http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webapp...noreRedirect=1

Note that their smaller cards are slower.

The difference is that the Sandisk Standard Cards in 256mb and 512mb size are much slower than the Panasonic cards in these sizes (if you are using a device that can take advantage of the faster speeds, or want faster transfer times when using a USB 2.0 card reader).

With Sandisk, you must buy their Ultra II series to get their faster cards in larger sizes.

To get a better idea of how slow the Sandisk Standard 256mb SD card is, just look at some of the card reader tests:

http://www.steves-digicams.com/2003_..._mcr-usb2.html

Note how much faster the Lexar SD Card is in this size (testing between 4 and 5 times as fast). Up until recently, Lexar was using Panasonic components for their high speed256mb and 512mb Secure Digital Cards.

You see the same thing, even using a Sandisk Reader:

http://www.steves-digicams.com/2002_...disk_6in1.html

Lexar had more than one component supplier of Secure Digital in the past. Their High Speed cards used the same components as the Panasonic cards in 256mb and 512mb size (which is the size of Panasonic's faster cards). Only recently did they start making their own (but most in the supply chain are probably still using the same components as Panasonic SD).

I've only seen one user that has gotten one of the newer Lexar Cards so far. You can tell the difference by the codes on the back of the cards.

BTW, in the G500 and KD-510z, you do not get any benefit as far as cycle times from a fast card (provided you use cards that are listed as compatible). The reason you want to use acard that Konica-Minolta approves is for reliability, not speed.


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Old Sep 6, 2004, 8:31 PM   #53
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Jimjiber,

With no AF Assist lamp, poor low light autofocus, sluggish movie clip processing, no AV-Out and a battery that falls to the floor as they forgot the latch......hardly a hidden gem this G400eh?

Stick to Sony, you know a huge advertising budget makes sense.

NeilSlade is so busy looking at that fuzzythird brick from the right he risks tripping overone of his ownposts.

:angry:

David


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Old Sep 6, 2004, 9:47 PM   #54
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Jim,

How "slow" the standard SanDisk cards are???

This is pure rubbish- what, do you work for Panasonic or what? ;-)

I am glad to see the correct transfer speeds on the Panasonic cards are up to the SanDisk speeds. thanks for correcting me on this Jim.

Nevertheless- my prices are correct- $250 for a friggin 512MB panasonic card. GOOD GRIEF!!!!

Okay- if you are INSANE, buy this card for $250.
Otherwise, consider 2 256MB SanDisk cards for $80 and a Minolta G400 for $235.

1) If one is taking photos professionally, and RISK of losing photos is a REAL issue-- rather than a sentimental one, my first question is-- why would anyone consider using a sub-compact in such situations anyway? These are not the cameras for DO or DIE situations to begin with...

2) Any faulty card(and/or)-camera match aparently makes itself know rather quickly. I don't think avoiding this questionable risk is worth paying for a card that costs as much as the camera itself.

As you know, I have tested the standard SanDisk 256 card, myself, repeatedly, with a Minolta G400.

I've reported the speed at which the camera and the cards work-- Look on my site and look at previous posts on this thread

My performance times match or near match Steve's fastest test times with the Minolta and his Ultra II card (slightly more money, slightly more speed in a few instances), showing mere fraction of a second differences between the two card types--

And my standard SanDisk 256 in my G400 is faster than any time you've experienced with your (I am assuming) "official" Panasonic card in your G500- or any of the Sony cameras for that matter.

So let's get real here, come on........ the facts speak for themselves
http://www.neilslade.com/Papers/details.html


************

As to those fanatical Sony owners like the one above who feels the need to root for his Team Manufacturer, beyond any real sense-- first of all, my HOUSE is filled with Sony gear-

I buy a camera for one thing--- great pictures.

Minolta:
Battery Latch- As for no battery latch-- are you joking??-- what, do we Kindergartener's need a safety belt to hold onto the battery....! I've pulled the battery in and out of my camera a hundred times-- and not dropped it once. PULLLEASSE--- I thought this was a serious thread for grownups. Yes, if you have the eye hand coordination of a goat, please do not buy a Minolta.

AV Out- I don't need to watch my snapshots on my TV like some couch potato. First I edit them on my computer with professional photo software at professional resolution- not interlaced on a TV tube. If I really feel the need to watch on TV- I make a CD-R. This takes all of 2 minutes. But, I have yet to do this.

Movies- I don't use a still camera to take MOVIES. I use a still camera to take still pictures. I use one of two video cameras to take movies. One of them a Sony, BTW. As to still images, the Minoltas dance rings around every single Sony under $1000 in general. Compare images, compare all features, compare cost. Its a no brainer. Guess that leaves some people out. Want movies-- make movies with a real movie camera. You want toy movies-- okay, take them with your still camera. I have done this on occassion for laughs- on both my Sony and Minolta.

Auto Focus Assist- Look on my web page--- you'll see a perfectly focused picture I took in near darkness in my closet with my G400. I don't have many out of focus pictures to share with you folks- sorry.

I DO HAVE a Sony S85, with all the features mentioned in the above post-- battery latch, AF assist lamp, movie processing speed. All of these features are worthless if the camera imaging and other control features, or battery life are inferior to begin with. (PS, I wouldn't trade my S85 for the current V1 if someone offered me-- there IS such a thing as manufacturer DE-evolution, and Sony has shown quite capable of this of recent, unfortunately.)

My friend got stuck with a Sony T1-- with all those goodies-- I wouldn't trade cameras with him for all the TEA in China.

Okay folks-- I have professional DVD editing to do-- and I only have so much time for this board--- fight amongst yourselves. Have fun with whatever camera you have.

And if you are SHOPPING for a camera- all I can say is-- I have shared my camera facts obsession with you, and I tried to warn you what I've discovered.

Bye, happy dreams
Neil
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Old Sep 6, 2004, 11:18 PM   #55
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neilslade wrote:
Quote:
How "slow" the standard SanDisk cards are???
This is pure rubbish- what, do you work for Panasonic or what? ;-)
Neal:

No, I don't. Look at any benchmarks in a device that can take advantage of faster SD cards. The Sandisk Standard SD Cards in larger (256mb, 512mb) sizes arevery slow compared to the Panasonic Cards in these sizes. Up until recently, all other SD Brands were using the same componentsas Sandisk, Panasonic, or Toshiba (rebranded cards).

You can actually see the *real* SD manufacturer running a utility called "Card Info" on some of the PDA's. Somebrands actually used more than one supplier (so you're "rolling the dice" unless you buy one of these 3, as to whose components you're really getting).

The Toshiba SD Cards are the next best for most uses. The read times are actually the fastest around in 256mb size,but the write times arereal slow. But,the read timeis usually more critical in most devices.

The Standard Panasonic SD Cards are much faster than theSandisk Standard SD cards in 256mb and 512mb size for both reads and writes; and much faster than the Toshiba Cards for writes.

Simpletech uses Panasonic Components in both 256mb and 512mb size. Lexar used to use Panasonic Components for all of their "high speed" SD cards (but used both Panasonic and Sandisk Components in their non-High Speed Cards). You can tell which by looking at the codes on their cards. However, Lexarhas recently started making their own SD.

The Sandisk Ultra II Cards in 256mb and 512mb size are actually the fastest for both reads and writes -- compared to any of the other brands -- when used in a device that can take advantage of the speed. They just "edge out" the Panasonic cards in most benchmark tests.

Quote:
glad to see the correct transfer speeds on the Panasonic cards are up to the SanDisk speeds.
They're actually dramatically faster than the Sandisk Standard SD Cards in larger sizes, in a device that can take advantage of them. Once you go to the Sandisk Ultra II cards, the Sandisk cards benchmark a hair faster than the Panasonics in some devices (but they are very close).

The original poster asked what cards to buy for a Konica KD-510z (not adevice that can take advantage of a faster card). You're the one that started quoting specs about Panasonic's slowwrite times from a web site that wasn't showing the specs fortheir larger cards. I just wanted to "set the record straight".

My point was not speed, but reliability. That's why I said this:

JimC wrote:
Quote:
BTW, in the G500 and KD-510z, you do not get any benefit as far as cycle times from a fast card (provided you use cards that are listed as compatible). The reason you want to use acard that Konica-Minolta approves is for reliability, not speed.
Konica-Minolta does not show the Sandisk Standard SD cards as being tested for the KD-510z camera the poster was asking about buying cards for. They used to show the Sandisk SD Cards through 128mb as being tested, but had specific warnings that the larger Sandisk 256mb SD Card could cause the camera to malfunction with errors. They have since removed all Sandisk SD Cards in all sizes from the list of tested cards for both the G500 and the KD-510z.

It is not uncommon for some devices to haveproblems with the Sandisk SDCards in larger sizes (or with manufacturers that are using the same components). Inthese, Toshiba or Panasonic Cards usually work fine (or cards using the same components).
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Old Sep 6, 2004, 11:46 PM   #56
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Thanks for your response,

My emphasis is that in these cameras-- there is no speed difference worth worrying about- clarified by the correct Panasonic read/write specs between the three cards in question, SanDisk Standard, UltraII, or the Panasonic.

I did try to bring out the fact that I've experienced no problems using the SanDisk standard card at 256MB that costs one third the price of comparible Panasonic 512 memory. I think this is something to consider seriously. So, is reliability an issue with G400's and much more affordable, and for all practical terms just as speedy SanDisk standard cards? Apparently not.

Anyone having problems with SanDisk memory please be heard.

Otherwise, it looks like a pretty safe bet for the G400.
Imaging Resources now recommends this camera as a preferred "Dave's Pick" at
http://www.imaging-resource.com/PROD...HTM#conclusion
although I've seen Dave also recommend cameras I hold in far less high regard. He also places it in the "Novice" camera, since it can operate in pure point and shoot- but it is capable of taking fully professional quality photos in the 4MP catagory, and is far more versitile than other higher rated "enthusiasts" cameras.Dave further doesn't appear to use anything but the supplied slower small Panasonic 16MB card, and his performance times reflect this. I take many of Dave's comments with a grain of salt...

By the way, Dave recommends his memory corruption recover software on his web site which he swears by- and in his opinion ALL brands of cards are subject to eventual failure and corruption. I myself have seen this in a Sony memory card which worked for about 3 years- then one day-- POOP!

The G500 and maybe the G600 might take a little more consideration regarding cards. If you get your card at many places, like camera shops or Costco, I would say that if you have a bad card, these places would have no problem with a return if they sell it to you for your camera in the first place. I.e., Costco sells the G500 AND ONLY SanDisk cards.


I think a more relevant issue would be do you want to pay $250 for a 512MB Panasonic card, or half as much for two 256MB Panasonic cards at $120, or are you willing to try two 256MB SanDisk cards for $80? I chose the latter for my camera, saved a pile of money, and have experienced no down time whatsoever. Since I picked the G400 over the G600 anyway, card malfunction wasn't an issue to begin with.

Its a personal risk assesment- different people will make different choices, obviously. I am sure Panasonic has their fans, as do SanDisk.

Okay- now I REALLY got to go to work.

Thanks for all opinions-- long live free speech and diverse opinions.

:|:|
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Old Sep 7, 2004, 4:02 AM   #57
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I am very very very confused by what type of SD card I should go for. Both me and my friend will buy the KD-510Z camera today. But what goes for those memories .. I am now confused :?

The price I could get for the different cards is (converted from Swedish Krona) :

SanDisk Secure Digital 256MB Ultra II is approx $69

SanDisk Secure Digital 256 - $51

Panasonic SecureDigital 256MB - $90

Sandisk SecureDigital 512mb - $83

Please help me to choooooose here friends !

Best regards

Niclas
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Old Sep 7, 2004, 4:42 AM   #58
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Neil, you state that you "buy a camera for one thing--- great pictures", but then you seem to make a big thing of the G400s startup time. I have read so many reviews to make sure I don't buy rubbish but I always factor this out of the equation.

Maybe I lead a very dull life but I can't think of many times where I simply had to have a camera ready to go in under 1.5 seconds, I really haven't. Seems most reviewers put a lot of weight on this too. Ridiculous.

Perhaps if I look for the cameras with the longest startup times then they will be cheaper? Startup time has to be the lowest priority to me.

Picture quality in all conditions is top, fancy features is second and stylish looks comes in third. Yes, I'm shallow.
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Old Sep 7, 2004, 7:30 AM   #59
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As to those fanatical Sony owners like the one above who feels the need to root for his Team Manufacturer, beyond any real sense--my house is filled with Sony gear--

I support Sony where they are best for the job, my house is full of gear too but less Sony than you from the sound of it.Each device isthe make that is best in its specific area...... with regard to value as well.

I buy a camera for one thing--- great pictures.

And me and that is why I ended up with my Sony. Well actually that isn't quite true, I need great pictures plus the features that extend the use of modern digicams beyond *photography* and into the broader area of *imaging*. Imaging is the future.

Battery Latch- As for no battery latch-- are you joking??-- what, do we Kindergartener's need a safety belt to hold onto the battery....! I've pulled the battery in and out of my camera a hundred times-- and not dropped it once. PULLLEASSE--- I thought this was a serious thread for grownups. Yes, if you have the eye hand coordination of a goat, please do not buy a Minolta.

Hmm....if you have just got to get that image of your wingman as you pull G in your F15 then you don't want that last minute battery change to risk the safety of the aircraft. Seriously it's attention tothese small details that show the difference between a well thought out product and an average one.

AV Out- I don't need to watch my snapshots on my TV like some couch potato. First I edit them on my computer with professional photo software at professional resolution- not interlaced on a TV tube. If I really feel the need to watch on TV- I make a CD-R. This takes all of 2 minutes. But, I have yet to do this.

Two points:

You go and see the elderly grandparents who would just love to see the kids on their recent hols. But they have no PC or DVD. Great, thenshow them on the TV.

More importantly to me when I'm away from home if I can't get to a PC I can always find a TV with AV sockets so I can edit (delete) down each days shots at a realistic display size to free up space and bring home the best.


Movies- I don't use a still camera to take MOVIES.

Neither do I.

I use a still camera to take still pictures.

Quite.

I use one of two video cameras to take movies.

I don't take movies.

As to still images, the Minoltas dance rings around every single Sony under $1000 in general.

I don't buy a camera to dance but if dancing rings equals better then that's very subjective and possibly quitewrong.

Compare images, compare all features, compare cost.

I have (including home tests of five cameras)and made the best choice for me.

You want toy movies-- okay, take them with your still camera. I have done this on occassion for laughs- on both my Sony and Minolta.

I take low-res video clips, not toymovies, and they give great pleasure to kids/friends/family who get a real feal for the action with the clear digital sound...despite the almost non-existant image quality.

Auto Focus Assist- Look on my web page--- you'll see a perfectly focused picture I took in near darkness in my closet with my G400. I don't have many out of focus pictures to share with you folks- sorry.

Had we taken your camera on our recent family hols I guess about 30-50 of the images would have been out of focus. By the way a nod towards JimC, we did get a couple of odd expressions from the kidswith that orange beam.

I DO HAVE a Sony S85, with all the features mentioned in the above post-- battery latch, AF assist lamp, movie processing speed. All of these features are worthless if the camera imaging and other control features, or battery life are inferior to begin with.

Quite agree, that's why I home tested several cameras to make sure I got excellent sharp images AND all the facilities I needed.

(PS, I wouldn't trade my S85 for the current V1 if someone offered me-- there IS such a thing as manufacturer DE-evolution, and Sony has shown quite capable of this of recent, unfortunately.)

No, I guess for your use I wouldn't..... but I would as I need 5MP (cropping/technical publishing). The V1 produces some superb images but is far too large to be considered a point & shoot in the current market.

My friend got stuck with a Sony T1-- with all those goodies-- I wouldn't trade cameras with him for all the TEA in China.

Absolutely, I wouldn't swap a boxful of T1s for my camera. Never buy a camera on its brand (or a fanatical supporters blinkered advice :-)).

It must perform for YOU the user.

David






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Old Sep 7, 2004, 11:32 AM   #60
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Cyber shot,

Of course I respect anybody's reason for choosing a camera, your's included.

My remarks and camera analysis are mostly for people who are considering a new camera, and who have not yet made a decision-- exactly the situation I found myself in not long ago.

Inacurate camera hype is overwhelming, and choosing a camera can be a daunting task with so many models out there, and so much poor information.

As per your feedback- Alas, my grandparents died 20 years ago- again, in such a situation, I'd make a CD- most everybody has a DVD player these days. If not, the old fashioned printed photos offer the best resolution and most convenient pass around format. And, most motel room TVs do not have AV jacks, as dolack themajority of TV sets in homes- though they are increasing. I've found that the small LCD on my camera has always sufficed for instant deleting of photos. In the case that I'm taking so many that I have to delete- this calls for saving the large batches to my laptop, or swapping cards. I'm not so sure that an AV jack offers any usefullness at all- in the three years that I've owned my S85 which has an AV jack- never used it. Maybe I need to get grandparents again.

5 MP does notautomatically produce better detailed images than 4MP, this is made quite clear if one carefully looks at comparitive photos between cameras. Many 5 MP cameras take significantly poor photos than other 4 MP cameras in fact- pixel size is the least of many qualitative factors in a camera's imaging. This is one of manufacturers recent ploys in selling more cameras, this exact assumption. Its a really bad assumption.

A careful analysis of the sample photos on Steve's site or Imaging Resources makes this issue clear, and how deceptive pixel resolution can be in determining image quality.

And its also why I was more satisfied with the Minolta G400 4MP performace over any 5 megapixel camera of similar size or price, including the entire stable of Sony's, which was initially my first choice before I really got into comparing the images from all of these cameras. Again, I have nothing against Sony as a brand, nor any other camera manufacturer. I LOVE Sony products in general.

But I've seen a very downward trend in Sony products and performance in the past couple of years. I went from a Sony monitor to a Toshiba and JVC monitor for my professional video editing this year- because the Sony trinitron monitors just did not perform as well any more.

I bought a Sony boombox to replace my older model- only to find the newer Sony model had downgraded the volume and tone control features from precise analog controls, to annoying and far less precise pre-selected digital notches. The analog controls cost Sony more to produe than the microchiped digital controls. Bleeech.

When I rebuilt my digital camera photo pages on my website- THE FIRST THING I DID was to recommend the Sony line of cameras-! - until I really started comparing the photos and features and prices in great length- and suddently, I realized my recommendations were based on former experience and prejudice rather than current image quality and performance-- I had not, in fact, planned on purchasing another digital camera, or replacing my S85. At one point, after all of my reviewing, I thought maybe a new P100, or W1, or even V1 would be nice-- then I saw what Minolta was doing and compared the images with the Sony's..... I had been making all of the wrong assumptions- and ended up with the G400.

As I've pointed out previously, I noted the bizarre blurring anti-noise detail loss that the new line of Sony cameras were showing. This can be seen in web sample photos quite clearly. The indoor performance without flash of the P100 was particularly dissapointing. The T1 performance in low light, was downright awful. The W1 and V1 images looked better to a degree, but then, we're leaving the realm of compact cameras now, and I was happy with my older S85 in this camera size range- and the older S85 (which can be found for about $200 or less like new on ebay) offers substantially better ergonomics and control access). Since the V1 and P100 are the top lines of Sony relative to camera size class, I haven't gone into any of the sub top of the line models for comparitive studies. I'm spoiled, and just look at the best in each class.

My job allows me the luxury of any camera purchase. I have no brand loyalty whatsoever

i.e.I have a variety of brands in my toolkit, and brand name does not enter into my decision making process. I own a Canon inkjet printer, outfitted with a third party Continuous Flow Ink system, previous Canon SLR, a Sony computer flat screen monitor and laptop computer, KRK sound monitors, Sony and Seinheisser headphones, Lowell lights, Neuman and Octava microphones, a Panasonic pro video camera, a Sony PC101 pocket video camera, a Sony S85 near SLR sized camera for controlled pro-shoots, a convenient Minolta G400 for pocket shoots (quality rivals the S85, with less control convienience- as are the other current Sony models), Toshiba and JVC TV monitors, etc etc.

My point being, that when I examined pocket sized compact and sub-compact cameras, obviously Canon and Sony were the first thing that occured to me out of habit. I considered Pentax, Olympus, Nikon, everything. My research surprised me as much as anyone, as the last time I had a Minolta was in jr high school. But when you find something great-- you go with it, no matter what logo on the front.

***

The Minolta series cameras take the same quality movie images as every other still camera out there- and perhaps better than many,if this is a useful feature to anyone. If this is at the top of your list, no, the Minolta doesn't have an AV jack to share these kinds of low-quality MPEG movies instantly on a TV. However, MPEG movies are really way down on my list for still camera features in justifying ownership of a still camera. I place it along side of "where are the cup holders".

The MInolta G seriescameras have TWO memory card slots- doubling the capacity over any other camera made. Since I do have a number of Sony cameras as well- this allows me to take advantage of my existing Sony memory cards as well as the faster SD cards I've purchased specifically for this camera, as SD cards are a bit faster than comparible Sony cards.

The start up times for a camera are relevant in some situations-- there are a great many instances where a second or a fraction of a second will make a difference as to whether or not you get a desired photo, and I've been victim to missing a photo by one second on many occassions. This is not an issue when taking technical photos, but it most certainly is any issue when using a camera spontaneously.

Okay guys, don't make me come back here!! ;-) hahaha

Neil

http://www.NeilSlade.com The Amazing Brain Adventure

http://www.NeilSlade.com/Papers/brainphotofun.html

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