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Old Sep 7, 2004, 12:56 PM   #61
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I'm trying to think of something controversial to say to keep this marvellous thread alive!

All I can come up with is I'M STILL STUCK!

I have absolutely no idea what I am going to buy now!

Suffice to say my moles in Hong Kong will get back to me tomorrow with prices on the Minolta G series and the Sony DSC-W1. I have already been given a firm price on the Pentax Optio S40 of 1500$HK, which equates to around £108. Yes, I have read some negative stuff about this tiny camera but at that price it's a steal.

If I can pick up the W1 for £180 or less then I will take it. Heck, the G400 is probably about £80 over there!
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Old Sep 7, 2004, 2:18 PM   #62
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I think the W1 is currently Sony's most popular camera, and its a very good camera, and I think the best performer under $1000 save the V1, which is more money, heavier, and I don't think takes significantly better photos- albeit it more feature laden. Sony makes solid products, and I believe they have the best repair record (i.e. lack of need of repair). It has a gigantic LCD, which is cool.

(Maybe I SHOULD open a camera store.;-) ....)

HOWEVER, The G400 is a smaller less expensive camera, but moe importantly produces superior comparitive photo quality to the W1, both in detail clarity and contrast in highly lit situations.

Honest-- I don't say these things just to be nasty. See for yourself: Comparitive photosnow added between the G400 and the W1:
http://www.neilslade.com/Papers/details.html

I wanted something significantly more pocketable than my S85, which the W1 is not really THAT much smaller. The G400 is $150 cheaper than the W1 to boot- so, for me, it was the choice. It is an outstanding quality camera for very little money- mind boggling in fact. Like I've said, the best kept digital camera secret at present, and for me preferable to the more expensive Pentax, Sony, or Casio cameras of the same size, since it produces better images in general, and has very good manual control options and features packed into a cigarette sized unit.

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Old Sep 7, 2004, 3:20 PM   #63
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Of course I respect anybody's reason for choosing a camera, your's included. But you don't really Neil. It is no good saying you respectan opinion and then posting as to how that opinion is wrong in every detail.

My remarks and camera analysis are mostly for people who are considering a new camera, and who have not yet made a decision-- exactly the situation I found myself in not long ago. Yep so are mine. And I think my needs may well match at least 50% of potential point & shoot users therefore so may my conclusions.

Inacurate camera hype is overwhelming, and choosing a camera can be a daunting task with so many models out there, and so much poor information. Absolutely and there are cameras supported here (I don't mean yours) that in reality have some pretty serious issues....but once the ball gets rolling and enough people say they are unbeatable then all the new owners see the hype in their photos rather than the true images.

As per your feedback- Alas, my grandparents died 20 years ago- again, in such a situation, I'd make a CD- most everybody has a DVD player these days. If not, the old fashioned printed photos offer the best resolution and most convenient pass around format. And, most motel room TVs do not have AV jacks, as dolack themajority of TV sets in homes- though they are increasing. Yes I'm without my grandparents but Ithink in terms ofour young children and their grandparents who love to see what the kids have been up to. In the UK very few folks in their eighties (in our family none) have a DVD player. Last time we went I loaded up about 150 images on memory sticks for them to catch up on our activities. Pretty tedious/costly to print out that lot for a single use. True that motel rooms in the UK have their own type of TV often without AV sockets. However our hols are always in private cottages that so far have had TVs with AV. Every relative of ours without a PC has TV with AV. No-one avoids our family digital slideshow!!

I've found that the small LCD on my camera has always sufficed for instant deleting of photos.
Sufficient if you have no choice, better than a 21" TV...no.

In the case that I'm taking so many that I have to delete- this calls for saving the large batches to my laptop, or swapping cards. Sorry no laptop here and I tend to use up every MB of space on all of our cards over ten days hols. Often I will take up to four shots of each subject in the day and it is great to "couch potato" in total comfort while deciding with the family on our choices/deletes from the days shooting.

I'm not so sure that an AV jack offers any usefullness at all- I think I've just shown that one person you have come across finds itessential, you never know there may be millions more who do!

in the three years that I've owned my S85 which has an AV jack- never used it. Quite, *you've* never used it but that doesn't make it a bad thing does it.

5 MP does notautomatically produce better detailed images than 4MP, this is made quite clear if one carefully looks at comparitive photos between cameras. Many 5 MP cameras take significantly poor photos than other 4 MP cameras in fact. I agree completely but was referring to you voting for your 2MP old Sony (a camera I really like the look of BTW) over a 5MP V1. In that case I would guess heavy cropping of shots, such as I need for some technical stuff, will lead to pixellation however good the lens. The results from my 5MPSony when cropped as required and published in B&W (semi-glossy paper) look great with real crisp detail as required for such work.

- pixel size is the least of many qualitative factors in a camera's imaging. No it is not "the least" of many factors it is one of many important ones.

This is one of manufacturers recent ploys in selling more cameras, this exact assumption. Quite true and a trap many fall into.

Its a really bad assumption. Well it is an assumption that needs consideration in the light of other factors.

A careful analysis of the sample photos on Steve's site or Imaging Resources makes this issue clear, and how deceptive pixel resolution can be in determining image quality.A careful analysis of many famous paintings will prove them to be absolute rubbish......but then you view them as intended and .......

And its also why I was more satisfied with the Minolta G400 4MP performace over any 5 megapixel camera of similar size or price, including the entire stable of Sony's, which was initially my first choice before I really got into comparing the images from all of these cameras.Funnily enough in your ownimagecomparisons that you give to *prove* your camera to be better than JimC's I can see the extra detail/quality in the G500 above the G400, small but it's there!


But I've seen a very downward trend in Sony products and performance in the past couple of years. I went from a Sony monitor to a Toshiba and JVC monitor for my professional video editing this year- because the Sony trinitron monitors just did not perform as well any more. You are right and it is a worrying trend with majorbrands the world overthat we comment on in this household time and again.

I bought a Sony boombox to replace my older model- only to find the newer Sony model had downgraded the volume and tone control features from precise analog controls, to annoying and far less precise pre-selected digital notches. The analog controls cost Sony more to produe than the microchiped digital controls. Bleeech. Yep, that sort of skipped detail isalmost as annoying asan unlatched battery that shoots out on the crazy F15 ride!

When I rebuilt my digital camera photo pages on my website- THE FIRST THING I DID was to recommend the Sony line of cameras-! - until I really started comparing the photos and features and prices in great length- and suddently, I realized my recommendations were based on former experience and prejudice rather than current image quality and performance-- I had not, in fact, planned on purchasing another digital camera, or replacing my S85. At one point, after all of my reviewing, I thought maybe a new P100, or W1, or even V1 would be nice-- then I saw what Minolta was doing and compared the images with the Sony's..... I had been making all of the wrong assumptions- and ended up with the G400. As I've pointed out previously, I noted the bizarre blurring anti-noise detail loss that the new line of Sony cameras were showing. This can be seen in web sample photos quite clearly. The indoor performance without flash of the P100 was particularly dissapointing. The T1 performance in low light, was downright awful. The W1 and V1 images looked better to a degree, but then, we're leaving the realm of compact cameras now, and I was happy with my older S85 in this camera size range- and the older S85 (which can be found for about $200 or less like new on ebay) offers substantially better ergonomics and control access). Since the V1 and P100 are the top lines of Sony relative to camera size class, I haven't gone into any of the sub top of the line models for comparitive studies. I'm spoiled, and just look at the best in each class. And of course my Sony loyalty in this thread is based on a 2003 model camera, before they got at them with that strong noise reduction. However even with that "factor" as a slight negative the reality is that for many point and shoot users the images wil look perfect at sensible sizes.

My job allows me the luxury of any camera purchase. I have no brand loyalty whatsoever
My wife allows me the luxury of two digital cameras. I have no brand loyalty either, just loyalty togood performance and features.

My point being, that when I examined pocket sized compact and sub-compact cameras, obviously Canon and Sony were the first thing that occured to me out of habit. I considered Pentax, Olympus, Nikon, everything. My research surprised me as much as anyone, as the last time I had a Minolta was in jr high school. But when you find something great-- you go with it, no matter what logo on the front. Yep I considered everything each time I bought a digicam. Took hours and hours of intense research to come up with the best choice/deal.

The Minolta series cameras take the same quality movie images as every other still camera out there- and perhaps better than many,if this is a useful feature to anyone. Well I've told you it is of use to me... so no need to try and attach a negative tag to video clips.

If this is at the top of your list, no, the Minolta doesn't have an AV jack to share these kinds of low-quality MPEG movies instantly on a TV. However, MPEG movies are really way down on my list for still camera features in justifying ownership of a still camera. I place it along side of "where are the cup holders". No not top of my list but way off the bottom. I've never owned a car with cup holders but I'm sure those that visit MackyDees need them.

The MInolta G seriescameras have TWO memory card slots- doubling the capacity over any other camera made. Since I do have a number of Sony cameras as well- this allows me to take advantage of my existing Sony memory cards as well as the faster SD cards I've purchased specifically for this camera, as SD cards are a bit faster than comparible Sony cards. Memory of all types is dirt cheap so I would never make that a deciding factor.

The start up times for a camera are relevant in some situations-- there are a great many instances where a second or a fraction of a second will make a difference as to whether or not you get a desired photo, and I've been victim to missing a photo by one second on many occassions. This is not an issue when taking technical photos, but it most certainly is any issue when using a camera spontaneously.Agreed prompt performance in all areas is desireable. Once used to a brisk camera (let's say a 2003 era Sony) anything older (say a 2001 era Kodak) feels dreadful, and of course anything quicker like the 2004 Sony's or perhaps your G400 seems great.

Okay guys, don't make me come back here!! ;-) hahaha

You meanwe have somechoice in this?


David





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Old Sep 7, 2004, 3:59 PM   #64
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Man, what good is ANY opinion if it just means agreeing to every point you make?

A Discussion is not a disscussion without disagrement.

And if you don't argue SPECIFIC POINTS-- then its just baloney.

Hey man, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

I like your 50% estimate that people will agree with you.
And what kind of marketing research have you based this on..? Well, in this vein of logic, I believe 50% of camera users will enjoy the same kind of cheese I enjoy on my sandwiches also.

How many times are you going to bring up the entirely "missing" irrelevant and unecessary battery latch? Good god man- can't you justify a camera buying decision on something less anal than this?! Okay-- we're all happy you got a battery latch with your Sony....

Does anybody need a 21" screen to search and delete unwantd photos--- well maybe if they are blind as a bat. hahaha

Yes, if you predictably show big slideshows on a TV at family gatherings from your camera and AV jack would be nice. See- I don't disagree with everything you say...

However- you are wrong about my S85-- it is a 4 MP camera not 2MP. Please read with care, $200 or less on ebay regularly. It's 3 years old. Works great, has better control accesability than any under $1000 Sony. My opinion.
Feel free to disagree. Its a free country.

Well HERE YOU GO- you admit it- the 2004 Sony's are INFERIOR!
>And of course my Sony loyalty in this thread is based on a 2003 model camera, before they got at them with that strong noise reduction.

Neil: ...if this is a useful feature to anyone."
Well I've told you it is of use to me... so no need to try and attach a >>negative tag<< to video clips.
Okay cybershot-- time to visit your local psychiatric counseling center...!

As for memory cost-- well, Jim here has been recommending $250 memory cards for his own reasons. I would hardly call that dirt cheap. And even if you go with less expensive memory, when you are a pro or shooting weeks of vacation photos, you need plenty of memory-- gee-- maybe that would cut down on your TV editing time in the motel to save memory space. ;-)





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Old Sep 7, 2004, 4:18 PM   #65
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FOR [email protected]

For the 510-- this is from both me and JimC's conclusions-

Jim correct me if I've missed something.



The camera performance with all three cards is close enough not to worry about it. The Ultra II is the fastest-- by .2 fractions of a second or that neighborhood.

Minolta recommends the Panasonic cards-- this is the safest bet, but its the most expensive. The 512 card is TWICE as expensive per MB memory as the 256 card- so, if it were me buying Panasonic, I'd get 2 256 instead of one 512.

Many people have used both the SanDisk standard and the Ultra II in the 500 (like your 510) without incident. So you can save some good money with this choice. HOWEVER, make sure you get it from someone who will accept a return if you are one of the unlucky ones to have a problem. If you were getting a G400, this wouldn't be an issue at all- but it is an issue with the G500/510 so consider your options.

Hope this is simple and clear...

Neil


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Old Sep 7, 2004, 4:59 PM   #66
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neilslade:

I was just waiting for someone to answer Thanks alot for it, it really helps us here in Sweden to choose the right memory for the KD-510Z.

A BIG Thanks to both of you guys .. Neilslade and JimC .. you guys ROCKS !!

From the Vikings in Sweden

/Niclas

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Old Sep 7, 2004, 6:28 PM   #67
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Sorry about that S85 confusion. I don't know the camera well but thought it was a well regarded 2MP from the past. As it is a 4MP then I quite agree any trade for a current 5MP (any make) would be questionable.

As to the rest...

Man, what good is ANY opinion if it just means agreeing to every point you make? A Discussion is not a disscussion without disagrement. And if you don't argue SPECIFIC POINTS-- then its just baloney. Hey man, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

Simply stated Neil in a few linesI raised several points that Steve himselfconsidered as negatives with your camera.......by chance features I have long highlighted here as ones that will usually enhance the digital imaging experience. Ones that I need myself in the family point and shoot environment.

In turn youhave taken up some 90 lines in telling me why I shouldn't enjoy these features, or at least why only an idiot would.

I have not argued with any of the positives you assert for your own camera, merely defending my simple requirements to enjoy excellent results from my own choice. They are quite down to earth** needs shared by many users. Yet still you want the last word in telling me I'm wrong to need what I need. Even to the point of asserting...

Does anybody need a 21" screen to search and delete unwantd photos--- well maybe if they are blind as a bat. hahaha

So if I have sight difficulties gained in the defence of my country and need help from a bigger screen to edit my images...... that would make me an idiot?

**Obviously the camera handling in an F15 was an exception but you never know, one day.....

Anyway I think my work is about done here. There must be another thread on AF-Assist Lamps needing attention.

David






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Old Sep 7, 2004, 7:02 PM   #68
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Steve, god bless him, has a million cameras go through his place- I have focused on the merits and practical use of compacts and subcompacts primarily and reported my practical findings in great detail. No one person is the last word in cameras- I've added my two cents.

Often "professional" reviewers dwell on unimportant items, just because its SOMETHING they can write about- and god knows it must get tedious to find something different and new to write about for every camera reviewed.

I have also found numerous "professional" comments on items to be flat out irrelevant or WRONG-

i.e. Go here and see a photo of my G400 battery door hanging wide open, with the battery NOT falling out at all.
http://www.neilslade.com/nobatterydrop.jpg

On top of this, third party high capacity batteries that I've bought for this camera fit even more snuggly, and a clip would be totally redundant.

And no, you didn't "just state" anything-- you've made this into a personal battleground and wrongly perceived aurgument and discussion as a personal attack---nobody called anybody an idiot. Lighten up Englishman! Learn from debate with JimC-- now there's a guy who understands the concept of debate..and who doesn't have such a sensitive thin skin. This is the stuff of discussion boards- make your point, counterpoint, use humor, don't be so touchy.

I think your comment that it's more useful to use a 21" TV for deleting unwanted photos is humorous-- hence, my own hahah observation retort. I would also guess that other people might find this amusing as well.

Neil
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Old Sep 7, 2004, 7:35 PM   #69
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.And no, you didn't "just state" anything-- you've made this into a personal battleground and wrongly perceived aurgument and discussion as a personal attack--- lighten up Englishman!

I just held up a mirror and it seems youare uncomfortable with the reflection.










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Old Sep 7, 2004, 7:41 PM   #70
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Oh god, Cybershot takes the last refuge for the un-informed....

"I'm a mirror and you're glue, whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you.... nah nah nah"

Okay, the rest of us would like to now get back to relevant and intelligent camera information for adults---

Neil
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