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Old Oct 4, 2004, 5:01 AM   #11
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Read the post again and see i said nothing about the Z3

What world do you live in?
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Old Oct 4, 2004, 5:18 AM   #12
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mariusi wrote:
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Kyocera M410R, shooting indefinitely at 2 fps WITH refocus is a very speedy, indeed.
But Steve is as always, extremely polite and a little optimistic with the camera he reviews. I took time to look at 410's samples posted. They're loussy. Look at Canon, Olympus, Sony, Kodak or Panasonic pictures and you'll see the difference.
Other reviewers are more specific: "Dull colors in photos; images look fuzzy and soft; low light focusing wasn't great; no AF-assist lamp".
Sorry, despite 10x zoom and good speed I don't like M410R and I cannot recomend it to others.

The Kyocera costs less then half the price then any 8mp camera.I have taken many photos with mine and the quality is very good with good colour.There are more positive reviews then negative about the Kyocera so get your facts straight before being the Know all you think you are.

Because i spent so little on the Kyocera i can comfortably upgrade in a year or 2 when technology will be even better but spending money on 8mp cameras now that are really not up to scratch makes no sense to me and i would not want to get rid of the camera at a huge loss after a year or 2. A lot of people think like me but i appreciate everyone has different views

JonnyG it is up to you but try before you buy is all i can say


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Old Oct 4, 2004, 6:12 AM   #13
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I'm sorry TC3 I upset you, it wasn't my intention! I recognise the qualities of M410R: 10x, speed and yes, you're right, price. But I tried to respond not to you but to JonnyG who, from his request, looks like he's looking more for quality in the performance/price balance.
I think you made clear to him you're point with M410.
Sorry again.
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Old Oct 4, 2004, 7:44 AM   #14
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Not to make anyone mad, but I kind of liked your debate. It gave me more details. I'm not sure of my budget, but I'd figured on the high side around $1000. Although I may end up buying it with American Express points that I've earned. I'm a real amateur and the SLR kind of intimidates me. Is it easy to use. I'd probably have to settle for the default lens for it due to money considerations. But my birthday is coming up. Basically I haven't ruled anything out.
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Old Oct 4, 2004, 8:20 AM   #15
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Lol, Jonny! Happy birthday!
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Old Oct 4, 2004, 9:08 AM   #16
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Not upset...just making my point but it was a good debate
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Old Oct 7, 2004, 3:16 PM   #17
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Okay, if I were to go the DSLR route, Nikon D70 or should I wait and see the Minolta? Any idea on timeframe for the Minolta? Or the Canon?

Also, I see the Nikon on a lot of sites with 2 sigma lenses(18-50, 55-200)for the same price as I see it with the Nikon lense(18-70). Which would you recommend?
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Old Oct 7, 2004, 5:37 PM   #18
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Sorry Jonny, I don't have practical experience with SLR. I have only a few hours of shooting with Canon 300D + various Canon L lenses. (But I was SO MUCH impressed). So here's my 2 pence:

Between Canon 300Dand NikonD70.Image quality is practical the same.300D is cheaper.D70 is better in "ergonomics": starts much faster, more independent setings, better build quality, more....

About lenses. First thing to take into account is the "focal length multiplier" (also named Field Of View (FOV) crop). On 300D is 1.6, on D70 is 1.5. This means that Nikkor 18-70 isequivalent to27-105mm. For interiors a minimum ~35-38mm is mandatory. A 27-28mm would be better, allowing you to capture more when you don't have where to physically step back. It happens to me a lot in the caves It can happen to you with many peoples in a room or buiding on streets or some landscapes. Almost all normal digicams offers at least 33-38mm wide (notable exception Canon A400 with 45mm).But you must pay atention on DSLR, take the multiplier into account!

I don't know if you need less than 33mm. I do sometimes. You decide.And be warned: short focal lenghts tends to "curve" surfaces. I red a user review unsatisfied about Canon S70 because of this. He returned it. Nobody told him that this was the way it worked and to flatten things all he had to do is to press a little the tele zoom button .A woman portrait made from very near with short focal does not look very flattering (in contrast, her breast looks more flaterring :-). It happens even at 35mm. It is said that short focals enhance volume apearance of objects. This is why the pro usuallyuse 90-105mm for portraiture.

With lens with ~ 28-100 equivalent you can do a lot of your photos. Where it lets you down is that small bird in the tree, that15 meters child in the park, that far tiger in the zoo, that far naked babe :-). Here Olympus-8080 will let you down too You'll need at least 200 mm. I had shot with 190 mm and it was better but I was't completelly satisfied. Then I had shotwith 320mm and I said "oh, baby!". I did some nice candid photos with unaware people more than 30m away!

Be aware: on long telephoto (more than 200mm equiv) image stabilizationis almost mandatory if you shoot without tripod. The longest shutter speed practical with handheld 200mm is 1/250. In sunlight it's ok but on overcast or shadows or evening you may not have enough light to use that high speed. SLR are better because you can use ISO 800 (noise is aprox equal with ISO 200 on a normal digicam).Higher ISO means faster speeds.Also if you're desperate youcan shoot RAW a little under exposed, something you can correctafter with the RAW converter.

Names forimage stabilizationare: Canon - IS, Nikon - VR, Panasonic - Mega OIS, Minolta - AS. Olympus does not have it anymore. Sony does not have it but compensates a little with larger aperture on 717 and 828 models. Others - no.

About lenses:Sigma, Tokina and Tamron (they are producing lenses for both Canon and Nikon mounts) are cheaper than Canon or Nikkor (Nikon) lenses. But also quality is somewhat poorer. Most important this translates innot so sharp images (especially at telephoto range and full wide apertures) and/or slower focusing speeds. 300D is able to focus in 0.25 sec with 18-55 kit lens (very fast). I don't have figures for USM lenses but I can tell youit felt VERY quick and I'm used with my Sony V-1 which is VERY quick also (0.3-0.5 sec). Take a look athttp://www.fredmiranda.com, ithas some user reviews about many lenses.

My personal favorite with a Canon SLRwould be the recently announced EF-S 17-85 f4-5.6 IS USM. 27-136mm equiv (so no 30m nakedbabes :-) ), but has ISplus USM meansvery fast focus.

Tamron AF18-200mm F/3.5-6.3 XR Di-II LD ASPHERICAL (IF) MACRO (just announced) would be a favorite for both Canon and Nikon. ~ 28-300mm equiv. A single lense that covers all. Much more convenient. It's small. Much less chances for dirt on your sensor (don't have to change lenses). But does not have IS, nobody knows (except Tamron image quality and more important, focusing speed. This is important because more power a zoom has, more difficult for the lense to focus is. Tamron says is derived from their 28-300mm but does not seem to be many reviews about that either.

Between the Nikor 18-70 (27-105 equiv) and Sigma 18-50 +55-200 (27-75 + 82.5-300). Sigma range is more useful but I'd carefully check the reviews first, I'd take good looks at sample photosand I'd choose a "no question asked" money back warranty suplier.

About timeframes. Canon has 300D ($600 body only, 6MP) and just announced 20D ($1500 body only, 8MP, more professional)so I don't think they will show something in the near future. The is for Nikon, D70 is good enough. To watch are Minolta Maxxum 7D (6MP, included IS is great!), Pentax *ist Ds (small), Olympus E-300 (small and 8MP). God knows about timeframes. Only Minolta published sample photos, that means they MIGHT beclose.

I almost forgot something VERY important. With a SLR you cannot compose (yet) with the LCD (there are some exceptions but they're not worthing mentioning. So you're forced to use the viewfinder. I'mwearing glasses, more than the dioptre adjustment corrects, at least on 300D. So I'm forced to use the glasses when shooting, pressing them on the viewfinder. And not beeing able to clearly see the info line on the bottomof it. It is difficult to me to shoot with a (cheap) SLR

I don't know if that's important to you, you cannon make small movies with a SLR. A made a few in the last year and it was fun. Especially at an ocasion when they believed that I'm going to photo them so they start moving around preparing themself for the shot. They did not understood why it's taking me so much, and they kept moving, arranging and staying still. The 30 seconds film was a great succes :-)

I'm also looking for the perfect all-uses camera. No chance yet. Maybe in a few years, thing seem to advance EXTREMELY quick these days on digital cameras. Till then, it' compromise.

Good luck,

Marius.
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Old Oct 7, 2004, 6:04 PM   #19
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Johnny...go with the FZ20...this is why:

You can pick it up for about $550...look around on the 'net.

Sorry, cannot give you specific URLs as Steve does not want to see them posted.

Then pickup at least 1g of SD cards. This will set you back about $80.

Then pick up at Digipower Dps 9000 external lithium battery (about $40). Why the DPS ? cuz...it can be used on almost any dig cam out there!

Throw in say...$20 to ship it all.

You have total of $690 into your FZ20.

That leaves $310 left in your budget and my birthday is early next year!!!

Grins......
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Old Oct 7, 2004, 7:26 PM   #20
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One more thing: more MP (at least till 10) IS better. I'll give youone "stupid" :blah:reason: 4x zoom 7MP sensor (Canon G6)has ~ 50%more "tele power" than 4x 3MP (G3). This is because you can crop from the larger image. From a tele power point of view you can look atG6 like a 6x G3 !

More MP is bad when is asociated with more noise andhigher price. Noise IS very important because it eats both your details and dinamic range; software noise removers (even Noise Ninja, the best) cannot do miracles. But let's take a look at MP by themselves.

I like how people are so"mimetic". If Phil or Steve or other pro says "MP race is stupid"so much people say the same. But here are the missed points. First of all, Steve and Phill and others are pro. They look at things from pro's perspective. MP on SLR do not compare with MP on a "compact".6MP on the tipical SLR is better then any "compact", 8MP included. Oly-8080 may beat SLR on resolution charts but the images from300D are MUCH more pleasant. I'm not sure what's the physical reason. I looked a lot at the pictures and not understanding. Maybe the lower noise plusthe higher dinamicrange, but it's a fact. 6MP on a SLR may be enough. ButNOT on a compact. Second: even theyput cameras in "classes".8 MP is aHIGHER class than 5 MP. They usually do not compare different classes because they know it'snonsense.Third: even they slowed down with the "MP is a stupid race" slogan.Theyaccepted for examplethat the ability to crop from a larger image might be important. Fourth: If MP race were stupidthan 16MP$8000 Canon EOS1Ds Mark II would be aVERY stupid camera, isn't it? But pros don't think so and look at it with respect. Why's that, isn't it a contradiction with MP is a stupid race slogan? No it's not and here's why: quality is astonishing, noise diminishedand it can take 5 pictures per second. Fifth: itIS stupid thatNikon 8800still needs 0.5-1.5 sec to focus and 3 seconds to take the next shot and images at ISO 400 are pretty useless. Your child is far away from the moment you pressed the shutter. They feel (and I also do) that it IS stupid that the progressis not soquick for faster speeds, faster ISO,greater dinamic range. Of course with still 1 sec focus speed MP race looks stupid. But MPRACE IS NOT STUPID BY ITSELF.So guys, put MP thing into perspective. I'd also prefer a 4MP, smooth photo look, 0.1 sec focus at $400.But it isn't hereright now. Maybe the Philips electrical adjustable liquid lense and faster image processorswill do the speed trick. Till then, wait. But the progress exists. The profi camera of the 1999, Canon Pro70 (1.5MP and $1200 at that time)needed from 2 to 4 (!) seconds to focus. Iused my first digital camera, a 640x480 Olympus, 7 years ago. And I'm looking at then since, hoping for The One: "Canon" image look, perfect auto white balance,> 6 MP,28-280mm IS, < 2.8 1/f, > 400 usable ISO, <0.2 sec autofocus including in the dark,useable tracking AF, < 1 sec shot-to-shot, > 8m flash range with no red-eye, zoom in movies, 500 pictures autonomy, less then 600g.I hope it wil be here in one-two years:G
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