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Old Dec 1, 2004, 3:33 PM   #21
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Sivaram Velauthapillai wrote:
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I mean, why else would someone buy a Sony V3 over Panasonic FZ20?

I really dont know, maybe for the extra MPs / and the bright lens of the Canon G6 (2.0) -

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Somewhat related to this, the sensors on the ultra-zooms are also smaller FOR A GIVEN PRICE than the low-zooms. I pointed this out above (or maybe in another post). The FZ20 has a smaller sensor than even a compact, and the mid-end ultra-zooms like Panasonic FZ3 or Canon S1 IS have even smaller sensors. Granted, this is not a flaw of high zoom; it is more of a price/branding issue but nevertheless, this is also something to keep in mind... in other words, ultra-zooms generally also have more noise than low-zooms...
the small senzor size is the main reason by wich the FZ20 has an aperture of f2.8 though out the zoom range, if the FZ20 used a bigger sensor it will be impossible to keep this setting, - a bigger lens and also a bigger body will be required, and the price would be quite expensive.....I know small sensors produce higher noise levels, but the noise problem on the FZ20 could be solve through a firmware update....by adding lower Isos....like on the FZ15 whose Iso 64 is almost free noise.

The FZ10 at Iso 50deliveries clean images too.....and the quality image is pretty similar and also a bit better than the G3 wich has alarger sensor.

I dont know, for me there are no too much differences between high-end low and long zoom cameras....if Canon and Sony sell a lot, is mainly because they produce high quality products and also and above all they havethousand of loyal costumers.

I'd buy both: the FZ20 and the G6.....the first because of the huge zoom, and the second by its brigth lens......but I do not see any reason to go for the V3 (maybethe Iso 800 could be a good reason - but not for me)
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Old Dec 1, 2004, 4:49 PM   #22
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fz10_user wrote:
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I dont know, for me there are no too much differences between high-end low and long zoom cameras....if Canon and Sony sell a lot, is mainly because they produce high quality products and also and above all they have thousand of loyalty costumers.
But...

Most people who want to buy a mid to high-end prosumer camera will have to make a decision between the low-zoom general cameras (like G6, V3, etc) and a high-zoom (like FZ20, KM Z3, etc)...

Most of the people who are prosumers are likely not loyal and instead care more about features, performance, etc. The people who are likely to be loyal are thte mainstream crowd, which wouldn't touch these cameras unless their life depended on it (ok maybe not, but you get my point)...

There are good reasons for buying a Sony V3 over Panasonic FZ20... most of these reasons revolve around image quality/noise/etc in low-light, indoors/tight angles, and stuff like that...
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Old Dec 1, 2004, 5:06 PM   #23
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fz10_user wrote:
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the small senzor size is the main reason by wich the FZ20 has an aperture of f2.8 though out the zoom range, if the FZ20 used a bigger sensor it will be impossible to keep this setting, - a bigger lens and also a bigger body will be required, and the price would be quite expensive.....
well... then... that makes it a trade-off for owning ultra-zooms...

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I know small sensors produce higher noise levels, but the noise problem on the FZ20 could be solve through a firmware update....by adding lower Isos....like on the FZ15 whose Iso 64 is almost free noise.
Well, the point of ISO is to be able to use higher ones with less noise. Shooting at low ISO with low noise sort of defeats the purpose.... my point is that the low-zoom general cameras generally let you shoot at higher ISOs with less noise. This will essentially mean that the general cameras will outperform the ultra-zooms indoors/at nights/etc (IF you don't use a flash)...

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The FZ10 at Iso 50 deliveries clean images too.....and the quality image is pretty similar and also a bit better than the G3 wich has a larger sensor.
I'll take your word for it... but the thing is... the G3 will likely beat the FZ10 at ISO100 or ISO200...

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I'd buy both: the FZ20 and the G6.....the first because of the huge zoom, and the second by its brigth lens......but I do not see any reason to go for the V3 (maybe the Iso 800 could be a good reason - but not for me)
Most people won't be able to afford two high-end prosumer cameras. If you really had cash to spend, why not get a really high-end "ultra"-zoom like Canon Powershot Pro1 or Konica Minolta A2 or Canon F828? (Of course, you can go for a low-end DSLR like Canon Rebel too but I'm ignoring DSLRs.) The high-end prosumer cameras like Pro1, A2, F828 generally have 7 MP on a 2/3" sensor, 7x zoom, aperatures of usually F2.0 (or slightly higher), and 2" LCD.

In some sense the really high-end prosumer cameras are actually a combination of the high-end ultra-zooms and high-end low-zoom general cameras.
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Old Dec 1, 2004, 9:59 PM   #24
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You use the V3 as one of your two examples for the overall statement that long zooms aren't as good for indoor shots as 3&4X zooms.

These are the barrel distortion tests for the V3 and FZ20 at wide from DCRP
V3

FZ20


Jeff Keller says the vignetting is apparent in the real world shots from the V3 but not from the FZ20. Barrel distortion is a little higher in the FZ20, but he lists them both as "moderate". Overall I don't find these samples show your point at all where the demo camera of your choice shows dramatic distortion and vignetting advantages over super zooms. It seems to be a mixed bag of the FZ20 having better vignetting and the V3 slightly less distortion. http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/cameraList.php

I assume the V3 holographic laser focus is similar to the V1. It starts getting fooled after about 8 feet and is less than totally reliable at longer ranges. The LCD gains up so you can see in almost total darkness, but that doesn't help much if the flash can't reach the target – unless you like green pictures. Nightshot is a neat feature but I doubt it is the effect most people are looking for.

The V3 flash is good for 11.5 feet in wide. They don't even publish the tele.. The FZ20 is listed at about 23 feet throughout the zoom range. They are both rated at ISO auto. Even if the FZ20 is a little more generous in the ISO it uses in auto, it still has a much better flash. You can use the strong flash to shoot at lower ISO for closer shots or get shots you can't get without an external flash on many other cameras.

Overall I would rather use the FZ20 for a wide range of indoor flash shots. Anything other than full wide it is superior IMO. And anything over 12 feet wide or probably 8 feet telephoto it will get the shot where the V3 won't. I recently visited a friend and used their FZ20. It is a much better camera indoors than my FZ10.

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Old Dec 1, 2004, 11:20 PM   #25
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Sivaram Velauthapillai wrote:
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Well, the point of ISO is to be able to use higher ones with less noise. Shooting at low ISO with low noise sort of defeats the purpose.... my point is that the low-zoom general cameras generally let you shoot at higher ISOs with less noise. This will essentially mean that the general cameras will outperform the ultra-zooms indoors/at nights/etc (IF you don't use a flash)...
All cameras with small sensor are noisy at high Isos, even high-end cameras like Canon G6, Sony v3, etc, etc......Isos above 200 are practically useless at full resolution, if you take a shotat Iso 400 or 800, your shot is gonna be useful only by rezising to 2 or 1MP orless.....and that happens with long and low zoom cameras....actually it's pretty sure that you'll need to use a post-processing software like Neat Image, even after resizing.

On the other hand, cameras with larger sensorperform better job in indoor shots than those with small ones -that isa matter of fact, andit's a consequence of thesensor size, but NOT the fact of being a long or low zoom DC.

Just check it out the recently posted sample shot of theNikon 8800....great indoors performance.....low noise level.

The FZs despitetheir small sensors have an outstanding performance in low light conditions.....I'll post a night shot taken with my FZ10.
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Most people won't be able to afford two high-end prosumer cameras. If you really had cash to spend, why not get a really high-end "ultra"-zoom like Canon Powershot Pro1 or Konica Minolta A2 or Canon F828? (Of course, you can go for a low-end DSLR like Canon Rebel too but I'm ignoring DSLRs.) The high-end prosumer cameras like Pro1, A2, F828 generally have 7 MP on a 2/3" sensor, 7x zoom, aperatures of usually F2.0 (or slightly higher), and 2" LCD.
Sure, but only the Sony F828 has a similar fast and bright lens as the Canon G6(f2.0), and as everybody knows the F828 is quite a bit noisy and deliveries images with above average Chromatic Aberration and also a bit of vignette.....

What I mean, I wouldnt buy a camera only because it has a larger sensor than my FZ10 or because it has a big LCD - first of all is the image quality.

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In some sense the really high-end prosumer cameras are actually a combination of the high-end ultra-zooms and high-end low-zoom general cameras.
Maybe, but not all these kind of cameras render a satisfying image quality.....the FZ20 is better than more than one, despite its 5MP and its small sensor.

In short, long zoom cameras could be as better as those with a short zoom (all aspects), and actually it happens in these times.


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Old Dec 1, 2004, 11:31 PM   #26
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slipe wrote:
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Overall I would rather use the FZ20 for a wide range of indoor flash shots. Anything other than full wide it is superior IMO. And anything over 12 feet wide or probably 8 feet telephoto it will get the shot where the V3 won't.
Ya, agree with you.

This is a night shot taken at Iso 50 f4.6 4s

Just to prove that Iso 50along with a small sensor on a long zoom camera under low light conditions, work fine.






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