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Old Feb 28, 2005, 5:04 AM   #1
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EDIT: see below ===='s - I'm posting a names of a few cameras under consideration

First of all, I have an extremely limited budget, so I'm willing to make some sacrifices, but I don't know where.

Basically, I'm looking for a cheap pocketable camera - preferably as LOW as possible - $10 to $50 on ebay (used is fine) if at all possible. If not, I may have to wait a while, although I will welcome suggestions that are somewhat out of that price range.

What I would like:
pocketable (doesn't have to be elph size but preferably not larger than a canon A-series camera (although a G-something or similar might be considered IF it's a decent camera for a decent price) (btw it doesn't have to be Canon))
full manual controls (push button is ok - just so long as I can at least select some apertures, ISOs, and exposure compensation (and probably also shutter speeds).
not-too-dense of a sensor (example 3mp on 1/1.8" or 2mp on 1/2") with exceptions if it performs well at high ISOs (example 7mp on 1/1.8")
ability to select at LEAST up to iso 400 (I'd probably also use iso 800 and maybe even 1600)
at least F/2.8 on the wide angle end (F/2.0 would be nice)
uses CompactFlash (doesn't have to be type II or support microdrive) or SmartMedia
a nightshot feature would be a HUGE plus
as for exposure latitude, I would like to be able to (at least at wide angle, if possible, get a stop or two faster shutter speeds at wide angle than my Canon S1 IS

Sacrifices I may be willing to make:
some image noise at high ISOs
not having IS/AS/VR
maybe using other media
would be willing to sacrifice the nightshot feature (if so, I do NOT want it to take Memory Stick media)
not having a lot of figure of merit (these pics will probably have a 99.9% chance of not ever being printed - will mainly be viewed on a computer monitor)

What I'm not sure what I should go for:
get a very high ISO (800 or 1600) capable camera with a slow aperture (4.x or 5.x) at full zoom, or get one that only goes to ISO 400 but stays at or below 3.x aperture at full zoom? (notice I have emphasis on wanting faster shutter speeds given a specific lighting situation, and would be willing to make some image noise sacrifice. (also under consideration is using negative exposure compensation in lieu of an ISO 800 or 1600)
low resolution (2 megapixels or less) and some moderate optical zoom (108mm or longer telephoto), or high resolution (5 megapixels for example) and little / no optical zoom (54mm or less) (btw there are ways i can get somewhat decent pics of people without having to point the camera AT them, it'd be nice.)

Basically, I have an extremely limited budget, so I'm willing to make some sacrifices. However, I at LEAST want semi-manual exposure controls, semi-decent quality for the resolution (and zoom), etc. I'm willing to look at used cameras - I just want some suggestions at what models to look at.


=================================
cameras under consideration:
(note that price mentioned is the ebay CURRENT bid price of the LOWEST priced item as of the time I was looking - the price may go UP - I would welcome estimates on what the particular models might be expected to go for. Links to actual auctions will NOT be provided.)

Olympus C-2040 - $46.00 (way out of price range but has F/1.8 lens at wideangle)
Olympus D-450 - $9.99
Olympus D-460 - $9.99
Fuji F700 - $1.00 (has ISO 1600 option)
Canon G1 - $5.00 (has F/2.0 lens)
Canon S30 - $26.00 (a bit high but has ISO800. I emailed one seller with a lower priced one that said he had one that works fine indoors but overexposes in daylight)
Nikon 990 - $10.50
Sony DSC-S75 - $0.99
Toshiba PDR-M70 - $9.00 (has F/2.0 lens)
Canon G2 - $9.99 (has F/2.0 lens)
Sony DSC-S85 - $0.99
Nikon 5000 - $52.00 (way high but has 2/3" sensor)
Olympus C-5050 - $53.00 (way high but has F/1.8 lens)
Sony DSC-V1 - $6.49 (has ISO 800, plus a MAJOR deal maker for me - nightshot mode (btw what would I expect to pay for some ND/PL/whatever-they-are filters that reduce incoming light? I want to be able to make nightshot mode usable under daylight conditions)

Like I said above, those are only ebay CURRENT auction prices (as of when I viewed the listings) on the LOWEST PRICED functional non-reserve / met-reserve item - does NOT include shipping or tax. I welcome suggestions on what to expect to pay for the above models (and if I have a chance if I keep looking (or am barking up the wrong tree) on getting better deals on the higher priced ones)
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Old Feb 28, 2005, 11:27 AM   #2
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I don't know if this will be up to your requirements, but having just bought the Contax SL300RT* which is virtually the same camera just different lens. I can recommend the Kyocera SL300R.

I own the Kyocera M410R which is a fantastic camera that everybody just ignores.

All of Kyoceras cameras with the Rtune technology are very fast.

TheKyocera SL300R isvery fast has lots of semi manual controls and you should be able to pick them up cheaply.

I found this link on the US ebay site.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...39015&rd=1

Cheers Ian
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Old Feb 28, 2005, 11:23 PM   #3
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Thanks for the suggestion.

btw.. I'm updating my list - here's a partial update with current prices (n/a means not coming up in search, $$$$ means WAY out of my range. a * to the left of the model indicates some favorites (due to clean high ISOs (or ISOs going to 800 or higher), fast lenses, other features, etc))

Kyocera SL300R - remove (sample ISO 800 image was WAY too noisy)
Olympus C-2020 - n/a
Olympus C-2040 - $$$$ 46
*Fuji F700 - $$$$ 51
Canon G1 - $6
*Canon S30 - 99¢
*Epson 3000Z - n/a
*Nikon 990 - $9.99
Nikon 995 - $$$ 20.50
*Olympus C-3000 - $$$$ 49
Olympus C-3030 - $$$$ 69.33
Olympus C-3040 - $$$$ 85
Ricoh RDC-7 - $$$$ OUCH
Sony DSC-S75 - $9.99
*Toshiba PDR-M70 - $$$$ 52
Canon G2 - $$$ 20.51
Canon G3 - $$$$ OUCH
*Olympus C-4040 - $$$$ 68
Sony DSC-S85 - $15
*Toshiba PDR-M81 (btw when will we start seeing ultracompacts and compacts with at least 4 megapixels (or more) that are THIS CLEAN(!!!!) at ISO 400 and higher?) - $$$$ 49.99
Canon G5 - $$$$ OUCH
Nikon 5000 - $1
Olympus C-5050 - $$$$ 83
*Sony DSC-V1 - $$$$ 51
Canon G6 - $1
Nikon 8400 - $$$$ OUCH
Sony DSC-V3 - $$ 22.50

So what would you suggest? Is there a chance that I could get any of those for < $10 - $20?
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Old Mar 1, 2005, 3:27 AM   #4
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Dear Pianoplayer,

I have seen only three of the threads that you have started, but they seem to have a common theme. How can I get this incredible camera for next to nothing. I guess that's the unspoken dream of almost every consumer, but my question is this: are you really looking for a camera or not?

About 6 weeks ago, you wrote:

"...with a 380mm F/3.1 telephoto - what would I need on a dSLR to match or exceed that? I'd also like a fairly fast (F/2.0 or F/1.4 or something like that) portrait lens or two (between 50mm and 150mm), and maybe a couple zoom lenses that are fairly fast. I don't have (and dont anticipate having for the next several months) thousands of $$$ to plunk down on a body and lenses, so the Rebel and D70 are out unless I get a super deal.What can I get for $700, $1000, or $1600?

=========

Prosumer:
would like something that fits in my pocket (My S1 IS does fit in my pocket but I'd like something a little smaller so you aren't as likely to see (or I'm not as likely to feel) a bulge in my pocket.) - this would be something I have with me almost 24/7. I would like fairly clean images at ISO 400 (with ISO 800 if possible being selectable even if there's a little bit of noise), at least 3 or 4mp, a fast lens (no slower than F/2.0 at wide if possible), at least 105mm telephoto. Also I want as little shutter and powerup lag as possible. I really don't care what memory it takes, but CF would be VERY nice. What could I get for between $300 and $500"

Two weeks ago, you wanted a camera with an optical zoom of over 100X with low noise, incredible low light capacity, and a low price, something you could use in darkness from 10 miles away and to makea clean 8 X 11 photo. I asked you how much you could spend on this camera and there was no reply.

I think most of the people on the forum really want to help fellow photo enthusiasts find a good camera. But sometimes I wonder if you really want any of the available choices. Do you?

By the way, if you can get a functioning camera from any of those models you mentioned for between $10 and $20, please let me (and the rest of the forum members) know your secret.

Good luck!
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Old Mar 1, 2005, 8:50 PM   #5
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editing list:

pianoplayer88key wrote:
Quote:
items being removed:
Olympus C-2020 - n/a - a bit large
Olympus C-2040 - $$$$ 46 - quite large
Canon G1 - $6 - somewhat large
*Epson 3000Z - n/a - huge
*Olympus C-3000 - $$$$ 49 - a bit large
Olympus C-3030 - $$$$ 69.33 - a bit large
Olympus C-3040 - $$$$ 85 - quite large
*Toshiba PDR-M70 - $$$$ 52 - a bit large
Canon G2 - $$$ 20.51 - a bit large
Canon G3 - $$$$ OUCH - a bit large
*Olympus C-4040 - $$$$ 68 - a bit large
Canon G5 - $$$$ OUCH - a bit large
Nikon 5000 - $1 - huge. (I like the sensor size though)
Olympus C-5050 - $$$$ 83 - quite large
Canon G6 - $1 - a bit large, and I really don't need THIS many megapixels
Nikon 8400 - $$$$ OUCH - quite large. Although 8 megapixels on a large sensor would be nice at a wide angle (<30mm) with a fast lens (< F/2.4) - and I'd be willing to give up most of the zoom. I guess there isn't anything out there like that?
Sony DSC-V3 - $$ 22.50 - a bit large, and the V1 would suffice for my needs
updated list:

*Fuji F700 - $$$$ 51
*Canon S30 - 99¢
*Nikon 990 - $9.99
Nikon 995 - $$$ 20.50
Ricoh RDC-7 - $$$$ OUCH
Sony DSC-S85 - $15 - borderline large but maybe ok
*Toshiba PDR-M81 (btw when will we start seeing ultracompacts and compacts with at least 4 megapixels (or more) that are THIS CLEAN(!!!!) at ISO 400 and higher?) - $$$$ 49.99
*Sony DSC-V1 - $$$$ 51

any other suggestions?
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Old Mar 4, 2005, 10:55 PM   #6
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Where can I find reviews on the following cameras?

EDIT: List has been narrowed down some.

Panasonic DMC-LC20
Sanyo DSC-MZ3
Epson 750Z
Sanyo DSC-MZ1
Toshiba PDR-M61
Contax SL300R T*
Sanyo Xacti DSC-J2
Fuji F420
Fuji M603
HP 720
Konica Minolta DG-4W
Kyocera S3R
Ricoh 400G Wide
Ricoh G4
Ricoh G4 Wide
Ricoh Caplio Pro G3
Ricoh RDC-i500
Kyocera SL400R
Panasonic DMC-LZ1
Minolta F200
Ricoh RR1
Kodak Z730
Panasonic DMC-LC80
Panasonic DMC-LZ2
Casio QV-5700
Kyocera S5R
Casio EX-P700
Fuji F10
Fuji F610

I know I have listed a TON of cameras, but imaging-resource.com has NO reviews (especially no indoor portrait no flash high ISO shots) of any of the cameras listed - if I knew their performance in low light (EV 4 to 7) with fast shutter speeds and typical prices (I could search ebay for that but typical street prices would also be nice to know) it might help me narrow the selection.

I'm especially interested in seeing how well / poor they perform with available-light photography at high ISO speeds (400, 800, 1600, whatever the camera's highest speed - I'm especially interested in pictures of people, not necessarily still-life shots), and also pictures of the cameras, and other review info like batteries, shutter lag, etc, would be nice. I definitely want manual exposure controls - at least ISO selectivity and aperture priority, and also shutter priority would be nice, as well as exposure compensation and a full manual mode (if it doesn't have full manual, then exposure compensation would be a must-have, and vice versa.)
I couldn't find anything with a high megapixel count, large sensor, iso 800 or 1600, super fast (F/1.6 or faster), non-zoom (for example something between 27 and 54mm) lens, though. (also prefer faster than F/4.8, ISO 400 at 3x telephoto or F/4.0, ISO 400 at 2x telephoto)

If you recognize any of the models listed, feel free to comment on your experiences with them.

I would especially like to get a brighter exposure (at the same shutter speed) than F/2.8 at ISO 400 (even if there's a bit of noise) without exposure compensation, but I did post a few that max out at this because I'm flexible (but on those, I tried to avoid too-dense (1/2.7" sensors with more than 2 megapixels for example) sensors.

Also, what are typical prices for the listed cameras?
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Old Mar 4, 2005, 11:04 PM   #7
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pianoplayer88key wrote:
Quote:
(btw when will we start seeing ultracompacts and compacts with at least 4 megapixels (or more) that are THIS CLEAN(!!!!) at ISO 400 and higher?)
That isn't ISO 400, that's ISO 200 and for 1/7th sec on a tripod for sure.
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Old Mar 4, 2005, 11:14 PM   #8
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rob_strain wrote:
Quote:
pianoplayer88key wrote:
Quote:
(btw when will we start seeing ultracompacts and compacts with at least 4 megapixels (or more) that are THIS CLEAN(!!!!) at ISO 400 and higher?)
That isn't ISO 400, that's ISO 200 and for 1/7th sec on a tripod for sure.
Then why does the file say ISO 400? I just downloaded & looked at the exif - and yes it DOES say ISO 200...

hmm...

ok what in a consumer cam is that clean at 400 or 800?
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Old Mar 5, 2005, 4:37 AM   #9
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I don't know.
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Old Mar 5, 2005, 10:50 PM   #10
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So, what's a good way to find non-flash high-iso low-light pictures with exif info on some of the cameras I listed in a previous post?

Should I do a search on images.google.com like:

indoor "low light" "no flash" "ISO 400" Make Model

??

Or is there a better place to find sample low-light fast-shutter images taken with the long list of unreviewed cameras a couple posts back?
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