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Old May 6, 2005, 2:16 AM   #11
KSV
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Hards80 wrote:
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in regards to your first paragraph.. while it is your opinion, please remember that the 20d also does not have spot meter, but 9% partial.. does that make it not a real camera? and what do you mean awful tendency of 350d to blow out highlights, it uses the same image processor as the 20d.. they are both "real" cameras and can do anything anyone could ever ask.. that is MY opinion
If you believe that 350D is "almost 20D" base on fact that both camera has 8mp sensor and digi-2 processor then so be it. In my view this two cameras out of comparison - 20D properly executed camera while 350D been stuffed with 8mp sensor and digi-2 processor to make people on strict budget believe that it is "almost 20D". My original point was very simple - IMHO350D only valid buy because of money, so if one can afford 20D (s)he should not even look at 350D.
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in regards to second.. the image stabilization from nikon is their VR lens series.. and sigma's is the OS.. and my response to your comment on the 135 and IS, is what sober person would not want it, given the opportunity... it is very useful in lower light situations and even for adding that extra sharpness in marginal light.. and if you want to talk about 300 and beyond.. remember that canon also has a 100-400 IS L that costs 1200, and yes they do make a 300 f4 IS for round 1000... and a 70-200 for bout 1600 which can be made a 300 w/ a 1.4tc, 75-300 for 400, 70-300 DO for 1050... i mean there are many image stabilized lenschoices costing less than 3800!!!!
Instead ofpaying around 400 bucks for 135/5.6 IS I would rather get lovely 135/2.8 prime for almost half money. Even if youcan kill 2 stops by using IS, I still not convinced that extra IS stuff inside lens improving it optical characteristics. IMHO 135m lens with IS is nonsense. But you made a point - THERE IS some useful IS lenses just above 1000 mark :-) They still can not be considered as cheap, so if one has money for such lenses why (s)he should get 350D instead of 20D still beyond my understanding.

NB: You still have not name any Nikon or Sigma IS lens :-)




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Old May 6, 2005, 2:52 AM   #12
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KSV wrote:
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If you believe that 350D is "almost 20D" base on fact that both camera has 8mp sensor and digi-2 processor then so be it.
Yes indeed what an astonishing conclusion! Same digital processor, same lenses, same resolution. Are you mad how could they give the same quality picture?

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I still not convinced that extra IS stuff inside lens improving it optical characteristics.
Um no - it doesn't, and strangely I don't think you will ever find someone who actually thinks that's what IS is for. What it does do is to allow you to handhold the camera at lower shutter speeds.

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IMHO 135m lens with IS is nonsense.
Then you must find the 17-85mm IS to be absolutely ridiculous. (Because of course no-one ever has a problem with blurred pictures because their shutter speed was too low).

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NB: You still have not name any Nikon or Sigma IS lens :-)
Nikon Image Stabilised lenses:
AF-S VR 200 F2
AF-S VR 300 F2.8
AF-S VRG 24-120mm
AFS-G VR 70-200mm
AF VR 80-400mm
AF-S VR 200-400mm

Sigma Image Stabilised:
80-400mm F4-5.6 EX APO OS (77mm)
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Old May 6, 2005, 12:45 PM   #13
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Thanks All for the useful info. Like your suggestion, I think I need to spend some time with these camera over the weekend.

Very helpful point on the post processing. Is there an in camera sharpening feature that would give the picture sharp enough that it does not require post processing? If so are you saying that SLR pic will still always be inferior ( less sharp) thanhigh end P/s pics?

I would like to do post processing but there is a time constraint on how much time I can spend doing this stuff. Assuming I have mastered some of the the key features of Photshop elements ( thanks Hards 80for the learning resources, I do need that)how much time does it take to post process a picture? i also heard there is batch processing feature with which you could process multiple pics.

If DSLR require a high learning curve along with time, I might have to buy tht P/s i was talking about in addition to DSLRduring the time I am still learning :-).

On that note is there a good handon course out there you can recommend in the San Francisco bay area. How a good online course?

Again thanks for your help. This makes my decision a lot easier.
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Old May 6, 2005, 2:18 PM   #14
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Yes to both questions,

You can shoot JPG, and up the in-camera sharpening & saturation, and you can batch process.

There is an issue with each option, once the in-camera stuff is applied it cannot be removed. So if the results are not what you want you are stuck with them.

And batch processing works great if all the imagesneed exactly the same things applied to them in the same amounts, notalwaysthe case.

Basically the above are what the P&S cameras do, they apply a generic processingrecipe to every image,if it applies to it or not.

Peter.
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Old May 15, 2005, 10:10 PM   #15
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To KVS -- Why do you sound sorude and SO NOT polite in your posts?I'm new to the sight, so is this a typical response? Does everyone get irritated with beginners questions? Is this website only for "pro's" or can us "beginners" ask our ignorant questions (which I'm sure every pro once did)?

Will someone experienced, but nice, answer my questions --? I am a student photographer and have an absolute passion for it!I just bought my 14 year old daughter her first beginner's camera (the Digital Rebel), along with the 18-55 lense kit and a 2-lense sigma kit. I know these are not the best lenses, but I figured for 14 year old, it's a pretty good start. I've enjoyed taking some picture's with this myself, but since I am hoping to become pro one day, I figured I needed a camera to grow with.

I am having the same dilemma about which camera to purchase for myself. I already own a Canon EOS3, but now I want a digital. I am leaning towards the Canon 20D -- my question is: Which lense is a good lense for someone starting out? Or, that will cover a lot different aspects of photography (if there is such a thing?) I want to do a miriad of things with pictures, so I just don't know which lense I should spend money on. I LOVE doing Macro -- any suggestions there?

Also, would anyone know why the "BC" icon keeps flashing on my EOS3, even after placing a new battery inside? It won't take pictures, but insteads hesitates then flashes, then the "BC". I purchased the camera about 3 or 4 years ago and have only used it maybe 500 shots.

Thank you to anyone that has any advice for me!! Take care.

TRC
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Old May 15, 2005, 10:26 PM   #16
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I'm sorry -- I forgot to ask a couple of questions:

I've only been into creating "Black & Whites" in a lab and have not experimented in the digital world yet. Wow -- I can't believe there is so much more to learn. I have been contemplating building a black & white lab in my basement by summer. However, the more I get into learning about digital, I am hearing from EVERYONE that I shouldn't waste my time and just invest in a digital lab -- any thoughts about this? I absolutely LOVE doing my prints by hand and I probably don't realize how much work it is to do so, but is there anyone left out there who still prefer hand made prints? What about the differences in doing Black & whites with digital?

Also, can anyone suggest what are the best programs to buy for doing digital prints?

What about any programs for learning how to do digital, etc.?

Thanks again!

TRC
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Old May 15, 2005, 10:34 PM   #17
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Hi Photobrattt, Welcome!

The Drebel, and those lenses are excelent to learn with and should take her a long way :!:

:-) the 20D is a most excellent body, it is the one I am using.
For yourself I'd really just pick one lens and try it for a while to see which way you want to go. I'd suggest the Sigma 24-70 ex or Tamron 28-75 sp, both are fast(F 2.8 ) and excellent optically, very good every day walk-about type lens.

For macro :-) I'd look to the sigma 150 or sigma 180 or tamron 180 macros, extremely good lenses but not cheap.

The BC flashing is trickey, I think on my old 10S (a film camera, not 10D) the flashing BC could mean a lens communication error, some internal error, or a bad battery(or battery contacts)!

Looks like the eos1 was similar:
http://www.photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-...?msg_id=003kGz

Peter.
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Old May 15, 2005, 10:47 PM   #18
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ok... let me see if i can answer as many of these as possible..

1) good choice for your daughter, that outfit should be more than is necessary to get a start in photography...

2) for you, i think the 20d is a wonderful choice, you will have no trouble moving from an EOS 3 to it and it will serve you well for many years (i love my 20d)

3) lenses, lenses, lenses- now thatIS the question isn't it??? for starters i would pick something up that covers a pretty decent range of focal length.. i love my 28-135 IS but its not quite wide enough sometimes, peripatetic will rave about his 17-85 IS all day, it will give you a little more wide but a little less zoom range.. either way, you cant go wrong.. they both offer macro modes, not as ideal as a dedicated macro lens, but they will work for a while..

i would prolly just start off with one of these lenses at first.. see what types of photographs you take the most of and see what you need next.. that will give you a better idea of what you will need.. this will prevent you from buying some lenses you really don't need..

if you want a dedicated macro right away, check out the sigma 105 2.8 macro, great lens and will give you plenty of working room when 1.6x factor is added in...

4)B&W - there are several printers available today that offer a photo gray cartridge, namely the HP 8450, which i own and love, and the Epson 2400... the HP is quite a bit less expensive and i find that it more than satisfies my needs, its notthe fastest in the world, but it makes great color and b&w prints.. both printers offer extended print life when used with proper paper..

5) Programs - I use Photoshop Elements 3.0 which can be had for 99USD and offers most of the key features of Photoshop CS.. i recommend this program wholeheartedly as it is both powerful when used correctly and is very intuitive to learn..

6) Learning Digital - The first thing to do is go down to the bookstore and pick up a few books on the topic.. my next suggestion might be a few night courses at your local community college or photography club.. check the internet- should be able to find them easy enough...

ok, thats my best attempt at answering all ofyour questions, hope that it was helpful and let me know if i can answer anything else..

regards, dustin


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Old May 15, 2005, 10:49 PM   #19
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what timing again Peter, we seem to always be answering at the same time.. :blah:

and usually with nearly the same answer
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Old May 15, 2005, 10:50 PM   #20
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HeHeh,
Buying chemicals is becoming difficult, I only know of 2 shops withinn 3 hours drive of me that sell the stuff.

Since I went digital (long before getting a DSLR) I have not been in my darkroom. Wife has taken it over as a picture frame storage dump. :?

Top program for image manipulation is PhotoShop CS, there are others and there is a forum them here.

There are a lot of sites with photo relate info and courses some free! But I can't locate my bookmarks of them. Hopefully someone can post a few.

Peter.
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