Go Back   Steve's Digicams Forums > Digicam Help > What Camera Should I Buy?

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old Jan 14, 2006, 3:07 AM   #11
Senior Member
 
ZAKD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 962
Default

I see a lot of smart information here and I read all of them always......thanks for sharing them.

Among the KM 5D (you state the mainplus which is "anti-shake"), the model have very different user's opinions (some of them like it very much, some of them are with doubts) still interested to know between

CanonEOS 350d and Nikon D70s

what could be the better choice for Intermediate user which like the most to take a people photos (much more indoor then out-door). Does the quality of photos have too muchconnection withNikon having no ISO100 and having 6mpx instead of Canon have ISO100 and 8mpx.

Also the LENS differance between them (18-55 vs 18-70)

Thanks
ZAKD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 14, 2006, 9:01 AM   #12
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 147
Default

Hi Zak. I don't really have a lot of technical information for you on either camera, but I went and tried both of them last weekend. Although they were both too big for my hands, I LOVED the Canon's continue mode!! I put in another post, that I would have hocked my house for that continueous mode in the Rebel XT (that one fit my smaller hands better). I also liked the placement of all the gadgets on the Canon (everything just made more sence when using it). If you can, you should really go hold the two of them and just see which one feels better. I think in general one is not really better than the other...just different. (oh, I like having a lower ISO as well). Good luck!:G

FBmom
futbol mom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 14, 2006, 4:06 PM   #13
Senior Member
 
rjseeney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Taylor Mill, Kentucky
Posts: 2,398
Default

I honestly don't believe the higher ISO of the D70 is even an issue. Noise is not even noticeable at 200, and is extremely low at 400 and would be comparable to the 350D at 100 and 200 ISO. You may occassionally run into outdoor situations where you'll need a ND filter to allow the use of larger aperatures for portrait work, but otherwise I doubt that you'd notice not having 100 ISO, especially if shooting on auto ISO. I think the choice comes down to which one feels right and is easiest to use for you. I think the only real advantage of the 350 is the 8mp sensor, and even that isn't a huge issue, especially if you pay attention to composition when shooting, reducing the need for cropping in post.

I am a Nikon shooter (one of the few in the forums:! so I am a little biased.:G
rjseeney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 14, 2006, 10:51 PM   #14
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 314
Default

I agree with rjseeney here (being another D70 user myself).

ISO 200 is plenty clean on the D70, and don't forget that the D70 has more than twice the flash sync speed and twice the maximum shutter speed that the Rebel XT has, which negates the ISO 100 (except that they're ever so slightly cleaner). Mind you, I'd like ISO 100 on the D70, so fill flash is a more viable option outdoors, but they're really on even keel here. On the other hand, I would like the Rebel XT's high-ISO performance.

As far as 6MP vs. 8MP, it's not a huge deal. 8 is nicer than 6, no doubt, so if you like them equally well, then you can use this criterion as a tiebreaker.

The biggest factor in image quality really comes down to the lens that you'll be using (resolution and minimum ISO are comparatively insignificant). If you use the kit lens with either one, I'd suspect that the D70 wins out, as the lens with it is much nicer than the one with the Rebel XT. If you buy the D70, you can probably start out with the kit lens, but with the Rebel XT, you probably should buy a nicer lens (at least a 50mm prime) right away, or you might be disappointed in the quality.

Because you will probably want to buy nicer lenses, you should consider the lens selection more carefully. In a nutshell (I'm sure someone will correct me where I'm wrong): Nikon tend to have brighter consumer lenses. Canon have more consumer lenses with USM (AF-S in the Nikon world) and IS (VR). Third-party lenses tend to work better with Nikon (the D200 and HSM notwithstanding), while there are sometimes focusing issues with Canon. Canon have a much better selection of telephoto lenses. With Nikon, you can use more lenses, including many of their manual focus ones. With Canon, you have a greater selection of AF lenses (but can't use their manual focus ones).

In addition, if this is a factor for you, Canon have 1.3 crop and FF cameras that you can use in the future, if you so desire, with your EF-lenses.

Nikon are reputed to have the better flash and metering system. However, the AWB isn't all that great, and D50 and D200 RAW files are encrypted. Nikon have such PR issues such as BGLOD, the battery recall, and the RAW encryption issue. Canon have much worse build quality for their Rebel series. The D70 has a moire issue (I know it doesn't happen all that often, but when it does, I still get annoyed).

Having said all that, if I were buying the camera today, I'd take a good look at the KM 5D and 7D. The built-in anti-shake is just very tempting. At this point, though, I've sunk quite a bit of money into Nikon glass already, so I'll probably just move on to the D200/D200 successor when my D70 dies or I feel like I need the additional features.
thebac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 15, 2006, 3:20 AM   #15
Senior Member
 
ZAKD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 962
Default

Yeah.........

Now I feel like everything have been said.

Thanks very much I appriciate information you give.

Lot of people said: NIKON D70s=the best guality camera at offered price...

Regards Zak
ZAKD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 15, 2006, 8:10 AM   #16
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Savannah, GA (USA)
Posts: 22,378
Default

ZAKD:

I've been watching your progress with your Nikon 8700, and you're very talented.

You also appear to have a very good understanding of Post Processing.

Given that, I think that you'll learn to get the best out of any camera you choose.

I'd try them out in a store to see how they "feel" to you. Check out the ergonomics, viewfinder, control layout, etc. in a store. It's hard to make a decision based on reviews and opinions.

Also, anyone's opinion you get in a forum is likely to be biased, including mine. ;-)

There are pros and cons to any of them.

I think that Nikon probably has the best flash system (not counting third party solutions), if you go with the SB800.

Nikon also has a faster flash sync than most (1/500 second), useful for fill flash in outdoor conditions when shooting at larger apertures.

But, IMO, that's a somewhat overrated feature, considering that you need to shoot at ISO 200 or higher ISO speeds (which is going to require faster shutter speeds for any given aperture and lighting condition, compared to a model shooting at lower ISO speeds). ;-)

Also, most major brands have external flash systems that are designed to let you shoot at faster shutter speeds than the sync speed anyway (they work by pulsing the light to make sure your subject is illuminated when the shutter opens and closes). This does limit your flash range, though.

Overall, I like the faster flash sync in the Nikon models, but I wouldn't choose one just because of it, unless I had a legimate need to use 1/500 second shutter speeds with flash.

When comparing cameras, also consider how you'll be shooting. If you shoot in raw versus jpeg, you take the camera's image processing out of the equation. So, differences between them tend to narrow, if you're processing the raw files the same way later, using the same tools (ACR, etc.).

The Nikon D70 is known for very good metering. So, I would take that into consideration. I personally don't like the D50 metering as well (it's designed more for better straight from the camera images, and tends to blow highlights more without exposure compensation in high dynamic range scenes)

From a color perspective, I've seen posters that have used both the Nikon D70 and KM 5D, say they prefer the colors from the 5D. But, again, that's JPEG (versus raw).

The Dynamic range (ability to capture a wider range of light and dark) isn't as good with the D70 as some other models. But, the same can be said of the KM 5D (it's not *that* much better than the D70).

Dave Etchells Imatest results can give you a better idea of Dynamic Range, Noise Levels, etc.. If you look at Dave's tests, the KM 5D is second only to the Fuji S3 Pro in Dynamic Range, when shooting in raw, out of models he's tested with Imatest so far.

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PROD...M5DIMATEST.HTM

The KM models also have lower noise levels compared to the D70, and the KM models have an available ISO 3200 (missing on the D70, unless you want to deliberately underexpose to simulate it). Of course, Anti-shake can help you to get sharper photos without a tripod if you don't want to increase ISO speeds as much, too.

But, Dave did not show how the D70 (or D70S) compare when shooting in raw. I don't know if there would be any significant different or not. There is some evidence that suggests Nikon is manipulating some of the data in raw files before compressing them in newer models, which could impact Dynamic Range. But, I haven't seen any controlled conditions tests comparing it them this way. Therefore, I haven't come to any conclusions.

You're getting into "spliltting hairs" when comparing models using the same sensor (and the Nikon D70, D70S and KM models all use a Sony 6MP CCD), especially if you shoot in raw. Having said that, there is likely some difference between the sensors, as well as differences in the Antialiasing filters.

Nikon chose to use a weaker AA filter in front of the sensor on the D70/D70s, which can result in sharper images. But, the downside can be more color artifacts and Moiré. You can see some examples in Steve's D70 review. AFAIK, the D70s is using the same AA filter. But, you'll rarely see a problem with Moiré, from what users have reported. So, I wouldn't worry about this part too much.

One other thing that is a pro for the Nikon is it's built in AF light. The other models you're looking at don't have this feature (they use their flash as an AF assist if popped up instead). Given that these cameras can all focus in lower light levels compared to your 8700, even without any AF assist, I wouldn't let it bother you too much if you went with a camera that didn't have this feature. If you use a dedicated flash with the other brands, most have AF assist lamps built in, too.

To be frank, the Nikon models were on my short list for a while, since I've already got some Nikon 35mm gear and lenses. I also like the Nikon ergonomics, and I had the opportunity to use a D70 a while back

The 18-70mm f/3.5-4.5 "kit lens" with the Nikon is also a bit better than the kit lens you'd get with the Canon or KM models. But, it's also a $300 lens (adds $300 to the suggested list price of the Nikon kit). So, you're comparing $100 lenses to a $300 lens. ;-) Now, you may find that vendors are not charging that much more for the Nikkor lens.

In any event, for portraiture, you'll probably want something better than any of the kit lenses. I'd suggest a bright 50mm (cheap for Nikon, Canon or KM models) to go along with your camera purchase for starters. That way, you'll be able to get faster shutter speeds indoors for any given ISO speed by shooting a wider apertures, as well as getting a shallower Depth of Field to help isolate your subject from distracting backgrounds. Then, add lenses that are longer and brighter as budget permits for even more versatility (and better bokeh), for example an 85mm prime.

Because Nikon decided to start encrypting some of the metadata related to White Balance in newer models (like the D2X, D50 and D2HS), I decided not to buy any more Nikon gear unless they reversed this practice (even though that meant I needed to buy new lenses for another brand).

IOW, I'm boycotting Nikon. I'm not going to support a manufacturer that uses tactics like encryption to try and stifle competition. If they think they've got a better solution with their optional Nikon Capture software, fine. Let it stand on it's own merits, versus what I consider to be "dirty tricks" to try and limit your choices.

That's a personal choice, and does not reflect the opinon of this site (as I'm only a moderator). In fact, unless he's changed, Steve uses a Nikon DSLR.

Note that Nikon does not encrypt the WB metadata in the D70s.

From a body perspective, you should probably be comparing the KM7D, EOS-20D and Nikon D70s (per perhaps the new D200).

You'll need to decide the issues that are important to you. But, make sure to try them out in a store to make sure you're comfortable with the camera you choose.

If you're not in a hurry (since you already have a camera), you might also want to wait another month to see what comes out of the PMA show in February (manufacturers tend to launch new models there).


JimC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 15, 2006, 10:11 AM   #17
Senior Member
 
ZAKD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 962
Default



Thanks really it is very concrete explanation and I save it on computer for further reading.

First thing that I want to ask from this review is:

JimC said: I'd suggest a bright 50mm (cheap for Nikon, Canon or KM models) to go along with your camera purchase for starters.

Since the lens are my biggest "do not know thing" I just want to ask you to writte exactly the name and size of the lens you mentioned for portrait shooting in order to find them in store and to see what are the prices and chances to buy one.

Thanks once-again
ZAKD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 15, 2006, 10:36 AM   #18
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Savannah, GA (USA)
Posts: 22,378
Default

I'd check in the lens specific forums for some opinions.

But, I'd personally consider a 50mm lens to be a "must have" if buying a new camera, since these lenses are sharp and cheap, and allow you to shoot in lower light than you could get away with using a zoom indoors without a flash.

You can buy a Nikkor 50mm f/1.8, a Canon 50mm f/1.8, or a Minolta 50mm f/1.7 for under $100.

These lenses will be sharper than a zoom, and can give you faster shutter speeds for any given lighting condition and ISO speed (since they have a larger aperture available compared to zooms). A brighter lens can also help a camera "see" better for focusing, and give you a brighter display in your viewfinder.

Lenses are rated by their maximum available apertures, and for most (but not all) zoom lenses, you'll see two aperture ratings... the first one is for the widest aperture at the wide end of the lens, and the second is the widest aperture at the long end of the lens. The largest available aperture will fall somewhere in between these two numbers at focal lengths in between the two extremes.

Some zoom lenses can maintain a constant aperture throughout their focal range (with f/2.8 being the most common). Of course, a brighter zoom lens is larger, heavier and more expensive. For indoor use without a flash, a lens with a constant f/2.8 aperture is preferred in a zoom (but, a brighter prime is even better, allowing faster shutter speeds and/or lower ISO speeds for the same conditions).

Aperture is a ratio, and is determined by dividing the focal length of the lens by the size of the iris opening.

The aperture scale (in one stop increments) goes f/1.0, f/1.4, f/2.0, f/2.8, f/4.0, f/5.6, f/8.0, f/11, f/16, f/22, etc. With each one stop move to a smaller aperture (represented by larger f/stop numbers), you will need shutter speeds twice as long for proper exposure.

So, a lens with a larger available aperture is desired to get fast enough shutter speeds to reduce motion blur (either from camera shake or subject movement) in many conditions.

Of course, the downside to using larger apertures is a shallower depth of field. This can be a pro or a con, depending on what you're shooting. But, for portraiture, you typically want a shallower depth of field (to help your subject stand out from distracting backgrounds). Also, just because a lens has larger available apertures, doesn't mean you need to shoot that way.

The lenses can also use smaller apertures than the largest available (and a lens isn't going to be as sharp at wide open apertures anyway, so "stopping down" a bit can yield sharper photos, and you've got more room to stop down with a prime starting out with larger apertures versus a zoom that may start out at f/2.8 or smaller.

Here is a handy online exposure calculator that lets you see how larger apertures impact shutter speeds, in 1/3, 1/2 or 1 stop increments (you can change this via check boxes at the bottom).

http://www.robert-barrett.com/photo/exposure_calculator.html


JimC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jan 15, 2006, 12:58 PM   #19
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 147
Default

Hey Jim C. Thank you so much for all the lens info! It helps so much. I am currently trying to decide it I want to purchase something more like a point and shoot with a high optical zoom, or make the investment into a camers with the option of using different lenses. I have to say that I'm starting to get intrigued by the whole lens thing. Anyway...thanks again for the info, very interesting.

FBmom
futbol mom is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:04 PM.