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Old Feb 22, 2006, 2:44 PM   #11
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Hey JimC,

That's awesome advice!

Afew quesitons for you, given you have a KM 5D.

I've seen a few shots from the KM 5Dtaken at ISO3200 on this forum and, to me, they appeared noisy to the point of unusable.

Have you had better luck at ISO3200?

Also, I've read some reviews that the KM 5D is not as responsive as the Rebel XT, say in the category of shutter lag, shot to shot time, buffer writing, etc.

I'm not trying to bash the KM 5D because I've always liked KM as a company, and the 5D seems like a great budget DSLR choice.

Maybe these issues aren't that important to most photogs, but for sports shooters, the ISO3200 performance and responsiveness are two major considerations.

So, given you've got the KM 5D and you're a very knowledgable photog, I thought you'd be a good person to ask the questions.

-- Terry




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Old Feb 22, 2006, 2:57 PM   #12
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Terry, I posted some ISO 3200 shots in one forum thread (just some staight from the camera jpegs) here, taken at very slow shutter speeds.

http://www.stevesforums.com/forums/v...c.php?id=76045

The color is a bit off due to the lighting since I didin't use a custom white balance (most of it came from a few candles around the bar area). It's darker than it appears in the images.

In better light (typical indoor conditions), you'll have less noise as long as you didn't underexpose. The entry level models from Canon and Nikon don't even have ISO 3200, and it's sometimes preferrable to have more noise than motion blur.

The KM 5D tests better than most camera models for noise in it's jpeg images (and you can shoot raw and convert later if you want better results), and you don't get ISO 3200 with the Nikon D50 and Canon Rebel XT.




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Old Feb 22, 2006, 4:06 PM   #13
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P.S.

Looking through some images, most of the time if I use ISO 3200, light is very low. So, my shutter speeds are so slow I require it.

Here's one I found at a faster 1/15 second at ISO 3200 and f/2.5. ;-)

I just converted the raw file via ACR 3.3 beta, with the white balance set to "as shot" (and the camera was set to incadescent versus custom).

No other PP was applied yet other than I rotated it, downsized it to 720 pixels wide, and and saved it to JPEG at 90% quality using Irvanview for posting here.

Keep in mind that the shutter speed was only 1/15 second, so you'll have a touch of motion blur from it. Also, I was at very close range (sitting across the table from them on a riverboat cruise) in Av Mode at f/2.5, so DOF is very shallow.

I've also got a version of it straightened [gotta watch that framing - :-)] lightly cropped and tweaked, but I just wanted to demonstrate the noise shooting in raw and converting with ACR for this one.

Sure, it's going to have some noise. But, if you need ISO 3200, it's nice to have it, and it's really relatively clean compared to most models at higher ISO speeds as long as you don't underexpose (and the entry level models from Canon and Nikon don't even have ISO 3200 available).

I want to be able to shoot in very low light without a flash (lighting by just a few candles in some of the local restaurants and clubs around the area), so I need the ISO 3200.

If you want to see how the noise compares using your normal workflow converting from raw, I'd be happy to send you the .mrw (raw) file.

I put the full size version from ACR here after saving it jpeg with a 95% jpeg quality setting using Irfanview (select original viewing size from the choices under the photo):

http://www.pbase.com/jcockfield/image/56405681

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Old Feb 22, 2006, 5:13 PM   #14
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One more comment. To give you an idea of just how dim it was on this riverboat (if the exposure time of 1/15 second at f/2.5 and ISO 3200 in the last photo doesn't tell you enough), here is one using the built in flash at f/4.5, ISO 800 and 1/60 second (just a quick conversion from raw with no tweaks to color).

If you look dead center up at the very top margin of this next image very closely, you'll see the two ladies sitting against the windows in the previous photo I just posted.

It was quite dim on that riverboat cruise. ;-)

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Old Feb 22, 2006, 5:49 PM   #15
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Hi JimC,

Thanks for the info.

Here's a link to another example of high ISO shots from the 5D and the noise level was pretty high:

http://www.stevesforums.com/forums/v...mp;forum_id=82

Wasn't sure if the examples in the link above were indicative.

How do you find the shutter lag and the shot to shot time on the KM 5D?

-- Terry
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Old Feb 22, 2006, 6:10 PM   #16
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I had not seen those. But, I don't know what he did to them either. I do see this comment:

Quote:
Settings Manual Mode, 1/500, f2.8. ISO 3200. This gave a slightly under exposed shot, but was the only way that I could freeze (almost) the action.
If he underexposed ISO 3200 and brightened the images to make them look better exposed, you're going to have higher noise, just as if you used ISO speeds even higher than ISO 3200 taking the photos. ;-)

If you plan on using ISO 3200, and want to keep noise levels to a mininum, you don't want to underexpose and brighten later (and that goes for any camera model). But, it's one way to further "stretch" a camera's limits if you have to underexpose for shutter speed purposes.

That's one problem I see with some of the ISO speed comparisons (other than controlled conditions tests). You often see exposure all over the place. So, it's very hard to compare models since if you underexpose, noise is going to be higher if you brighten the images via an exposure slider during raw conversion, or brighten the jpeg images later.

Likewise, noise will be lower if a model tends to expose a bit brighter compared to others. So, understanding your camera's metering behavior and making sure you don't underexpose is the biggest key to keeping noise down at higher ISO Speeds.

Quote:
How do you find the shutter lag and the shot to shot time on the KM 5D?
It seems just fine for my limited needs. I have a habit of leaving my camera in continuous mode and accidently take a burst of photos pretty often. It's got a small buffer (only 5 frames shooting raw) but it's quite fast for an entry level DSLR (I think it's supposed to test at close to 3 frames per second until the buffer is full).

If you've got an Extreme III Card, it will write at around 1 frame per second to media shooting in raw, after the buffer fills up. I usually shoot in raw. But, if shooting sports, you should be able to do just fine going jpeg, so you don't need to worry about buffer size and write speed as much. I've seen users report that it just keeps on going at a relatively fast frame rate with an Extreme III card shooting jpeg (I think it will keep gong at around 2 frames per second with a full buffer in jpeg).


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Old Feb 24, 2006, 11:11 AM   #17
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Thank-you everybody for your replies and thoughts. It seems like I probably won't be happy with my results unless I go dslr, so I guessthat is what I will begin researching. Again, thank-you for helping me to figure out which way to go.

Peggy:shock:


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