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Old May 21, 2006, 9:59 AM   #1
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I'm thinking in upgrade from Sony W7 to more powerfull zoom digicam. In the reviews all those three mentioned above seems to be very good. I'm biased to FZ7 due its gyro's movement compensation. Canon S2 do as the same IS system which the 20Ds as?

All sugestions will be welcome !



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Old May 21, 2006, 12:32 PM   #2
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In the H1 review at dpreview Simon thought the Sony stabilization wasn't quite as effective as Canon and Panasonic. Other reviewers didn't seem to find the same deficiency and I haven't personally compared them. I haven't read any remarks by competent reviewers that the Canon system is any less effective than Panasonic.

I don't know whether the stabilization is exactly the same in the S2 as Canon uses in their SLR lenses. Canon has a lot of experience in optical stabilization and I would guess they know what they are doing. They have been making stabilized binoculars for many years (I have a pair) and they were the first I am aware of to stabilize camera lenses. They were also the first to make stabilized lenses for non-DSLR digital cameras.

The Panasonic stabilization is very good. You can choose a mode that stabilizes the viewfinder but is slightly less effective or one that just kicks in when you take the photo.

If you aren't interested in movies you might also consider the Panasonic FZ20. I don't know about your prices in Brazil, but the FZ20s are selling for attractive prices in the US. It is a half stop faster at full zoom than the FZ7. That can be significant even with good stabilization using 12X in poor lighting. It also has a stronger flash at zoom as well as a hotshoe. With an inexpensive bounce flash attachment you can really improve your flash shots. FZ20 movies are next to useless though and it is bulkier than the FZ7 and S2.

Wind noise can be a real nuisance with movies and the S2/S3 have wind buffered stereo mics. It is probably the best option if movies are important. I also like the flip out LCD. It gives more versatility shooting from over your head, near the ground or at angles for good candid shots. You can also fold it in so the LCD is protected.

I don't think you will go wrong with any of them. The H1, S2, FZ7 and FZ20 were all on Steve's best cameras list. The H1, S2 and FZ20 were also "highly recommended" at dpreview with the FZ7 getting only a "recommended". They didn't like the noise and focus hunting.

One feature of the Panasonics I like is the good burst mode. The S2 is almost as good. Sony calls a shot a second a "burst" but it is a bad joke.


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Old May 22, 2006, 6:23 PM   #3
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HI! I am new at Steve"s and delighted to be here, I just bought the S2 IS two weeks ago and I already know it is going to be a love affair, it is just fantastic!

Regards: Hernan
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Old May 22, 2006, 6:48 PM   #4
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slipe wrote:
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I don't know whether the stabilization is exactly the same in the S2 as Canon uses in their SLR lenses. Canon has a lot of experience in optical stabilization and I would guess they know what they are doing. They have been making stabilized binoculars for many years (I have a pair) and they were the first I am aware of to stabilize camera lenses. They were also the first to make stabilized lenses for non-DSLR digital cameras.
Unless I'm missing some, I think Sony beat 'em to it for non-DSLR models with their "Steady Shot" stabilization (first introduced with the Sony Mavica FD-91).

Then, over a year later, Olympus released their C-2100UZ, which was followed by the Canon Powershot Pro90 IS (and both of these appeared to use the same basic stabilized lens design, probably from Canon).

Canon was first (AFAIK) with stabilized lenses for DSLR models (introduced around 1995). I don't know who was first with them for other applications (video cameras, etc.).

But, I wouldn't be surprised if they all came from the same factories. ;-)



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Old May 22, 2006, 6:59 PM   #5
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P.S.

It looks like Pentax is joining KM with more cameras having in camera (versus in lens) stabilization.

Pentax already released two non-DSLR models with SR (Shake Reduction), and they're going to have it their upcoming DSLR models, too.

http://www.steves-digicams.com/pr/pe...-k110d_pr.html

Sony will probably make some announcements next month (Sony and KM have been working on new models that can use the Minolta Maxxum lens mount). All they've put up so far are some "teaser" web sites on the new Sony Alpha DSLR line.

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Old May 23, 2006, 10:34 AM   #6
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What I'm really want to do is going in to DSLR gear, however the cost of a good stabilized lens with good zoom is too expensive to me. Let say the cost of Panasonic FZ7 is U$ 400 plus 1gb memory card against 18-200VR Nikkor (without body)wich cost U$ 750 average. I know there is a big diference between the CCD sizes, and speed in all means, but to give me the zoom boost I want it is too much !

I don't understand, the guy who made the test at dbphoto said that Sony H1 stabilization was not that good, but in the pictures comparison with Canon S2 IS and Panasonic FZ7it is almost the same. And at final of analisis he said that H1 is "High Reccomended" ?

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Old May 23, 2006, 10:49 AM   #7
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JHVOLTZ wrote:
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What I'm really want to do is going in to DSLR gear, however the cost of a good stabilized lens with good zoom is too expensive to me.
Then go for KonicaMinolta DSLRs, Anti-Shake is based to moving sensor instead of lens element so every lens is stabilized.
Coming Sony DSLRs will quite propably have same Anti-Shake.
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Old May 23, 2006, 10:53 AM   #8
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If you really wanted an "all in one" DSLR solution with stabilization, you could go with something like a Konica Minolta Maxxum (a.k.a., Dynax)5D with a Konica Minolta 18-200mm DT zoom lens (or a Sigma or Tamron 18-200mm lens) That would be a far less expensive compared to the Nikon (and it would also give you stabilization with any lens you buy for it).

As I mentioned in my previous post, Pentax will also be releasing a model with built in Shake Reduction (so, it would work with any lens you put on it).

As E.Tmentioned, Sony will also be releasing DSLR models that can use the same Minolta Maxxum (Dynax) lenses, and one interview with Sony management indicated that Anti-shake would be retained.

The 5D is getting pretty hard to find now, though. Some "brick and mortar" dealers may still have them in stock.

But, keep in mind that these "all in one" zooms are not that bright. Most are down to f/5.6 by the time you zoom in much with them. As a general rule, the greater the difference between the wide and long end of a lens, the more compromises the manufacturer makes in quality, too. But, some users appreciate their convenience, and with a DSLR solution, you could increase the ISO speed more to help make up for the lack of brightness when zoomed in a lot with one.

We have a couple of forum members with the Konica Minolta 5D or 7D that bought the Tamron 28-300mm Xr lens to use on them as an "all in one" solution. There is an Ebay vendor that is selling these lenses in Minolta mountnew in the box for $149 now.

The camera typically sells for around $600 (when you can find one). So, even with a lens like that, you'd be under $800 for the package if you can buy it at a good price.

With an entry level DSLR model from Nikon, Pentax or Konica Minolta, a lens will appear to be 50% longer on one compared to the same lens on a 35mm camera.

So, an 18-200mm lens would give you the same angle of view (apparent magnification) as a 27-300mm lens on a 35mm camera.

A 28-300mm lens would give you the same angle of view as a 42-450mm lens on a 35mm camera.

One of our forum members (rduve_) has a Konica Minolta Maxxum 5D with the Tamron 28-300mm Xr lens on it (by the way, rduvealso owned a Panasonic DMC-FZ30). You can see some comments he made about this lens/camera combination here:

http://www.stevesforums.com/forums/v...=84&page=6

P.S.

Here is another thread discussing some of the 18-200mm lenses on a KM DSLR:

http://www.stevesforums.com/forums/v...mp;forum_id=84

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Old May 23, 2006, 11:23 AM   #9
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slipe wrote:
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The H1, S2 and FZ20 were also "highly recommended" at dpreview with the FZ7 getting only a "recommended". They didn't like the noise and focus hunting.
Generally speaking, Slipe has provided an excellent overview of these cameras that is wonderfully free from the usual "buy my camera" rant. I would just add one small warning about the above point -- the FZ7 is a generation later than the other three cameras. The fact that a camera was rated "highly recommended" a year ago does not mean that it is better than one rated "recommended" now. In each case, the recommendation was relative to what was available at that time. I don't own, nor have I used, the FZ7. But I would expect that it is very competitve with all of the others listed -- it's just that, apparently in DPReview's opinion, it's not a standout among this year's crop of cameras.


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Old May 23, 2006, 3:02 PM   #10
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A point that has been hinted at but not actually covered is that the ability of a DSLR to shoot at high ISO with acceptable noise adequately substitutes for stabilization when compared to non-DSLR superzooms. And there is the added advantage that where stabilization is allowing you to shoot at lower shutter speeds that will result in blur with subject movement, higher ISO gives good subject action capabilities as well.

Of course high ISO combined with stabilization is even better.

I agree with tclune that cameras are improving so fast that even the 7 months difference in release dates could put the FZ7 in a different generation. It is worth noting though that they gave the S3 a highly recommended even though the feature set improvement over the S2 wasn't as great as those between the FZ5 and FZ7 and they didn't see significant photographic improvements. Simon said in his FZ7 conclusion:
"Unfortunately, no matter how good the camera we can't let the noise issue pass; like the LX1 reviewed late last year the FZ7 exhibits an unacceptable level of noise at all ISO settings, most especially at ISO 200+. For this reason - and this reason alone - the FZ7 misses out on a Highly Recommended; let's hope Panasonic has a better sensor up its sleeve for the next generation of this otherwise superb camera."
That would give me pause.


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slipe wrote:
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I don't know whether the stabilization is exactly the same in the S2 as Canon uses in their SLR lenses. Canon has a lot of experience in optical stabilization and I would guess they know what they are doing. They have been making stabilized binoculars for many years (I have a pair) and they were the first I am aware of to stabilize camera lenses. They were also the first to make stabilized lenses for non-DSLR digital cameras.
Unless I'm missing some, I think Sony beat 'em to it for non-DSLR models with their "Steady Shot" stabilization (first introduced with the Sony Mavica FD-91).

Then, over a year later, Olympus released their C-2100UZ, which was followed by the Canon Powershot Pro90 IS (and both of these appeared to use the same basic stabilized lens design, probably from Canon).

Canon was first (AFAIK) with stabilized lenses for DSLR models (introduced around 1995). I don't know who was first with them for other applications (video cameras, etc.).

But, I wouldn't be surprised if they all came from the same factories. ;-)


The famous Olympus UZI (C-2100UZ) had the same Canon made lens as the Pro 90. The Sony Mavica FD-91 didn't have either a stabilized lens element or stabilized sensor. It had a relatively ineffective digital stabilization.

It is surprising that Canon let Panasonic steal the march in stabilized cameras. They have recovered nicely, but Panasonic now has a market share they didn't have before the FZ10.

Sony is using "Super Steady Shot" for true optically stabilized cameras since they applied "Steady Shot" to digital stabilization. I think Sony was the first to apply mechanical stabilization to video cameras, so unless they were using a Canon technology they were late in the march too.

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