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Old Aug 31, 2006, 9:14 AM   #41
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The EXIF information only tells you the in-camera settings. The pictures shown exhibit obvious sharpening artifacts (probably from PP, as in-camera settings, as you point out, weren't the culprit), especially considering that only one of them was taken at an ISO higher then 400, it's not just noise.

However, your second point is well taken. I just realized that the EXIF is still intact on the pictures and shows that the 7D was taken at ISO 125, the D50 doesn't show for me, the 5D was taken at ISO 100, the DS at ISO 1600 (and f/13, ugh!), the E-300 at ISO 400, and the K100D at ISO 200. Except for the DS (and maybe E-300), none of the other pictures should show any objectionable noise, there aren't any deep shadows in the pictures! The pictures are in no way comparable, as they weren't taken with similar settings or similar lenses, and were PP differently. I really don't understand why the 7D and 5D, and DS and K100D, respectively, didn't share the same lens and settings for the tests, they share the same lens mounts!

Having said that, it's possible that it's not only oversharpening that makes some pictures look so ugly, it's possible that it's also that some of them were brought back up in PP, which introduces additional noise.

meanstreak wrote:
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thebac wrote:
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MT, off-topic, but you might want to cut back on sharpening.

Except for the 5D picture, which looks fine, and the 7D picture, which looks soft, the rest all look oversharpened with ugly artifacts.
Actually accorcing to the EXIF info, the sharpness settings are mostly normal or soft. The one I view as worst is actual set to soft. It's really hard to compare images between cameras based on a few posted photos since the actual lenses and apertures used and any cropping involvedcouldhavean impact on the final outcome.

K100D Hard

E300Soft

DS Normal

5D Normal

D50 Hard

7D Normal

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Old Aug 31, 2006, 9:23 AM   #42
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gaggu,

as meanstreak and myself point out, the pictures are in no way comparable to each other, so I wouldn't use them as a basis for your choice. The noise in some of the pictures come from MT's (unconscious?) decision to oversharpen some of them, introducing ugly sharpening artifacts along the way which look a lot like noise. Furthermore, they weren't taken at comparable ISO's--they range from 100-1600. The noise difference between cameras at ISO 400 is much less than the difference in noise from 400 to 1600 with the same camera (let alone 100 to 1600).

Properly exposed and sharpened, NONE of the pictures, in a situation as above, should show any noise with a DSLR.

gaggu wrote:
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Thanks MT

Well ... I also see that the better pictures in these pictures
are from KM and the Nikon is not bad either. The remaining
ones are clearly noisey.

Hmmm ... the more I see the results and the more I compare,
I keep coming closer to a conclusion that the "perfect" DSLR
does not exist. All of them are good and all of them come with
little annoying quirks which the users have to live with.

There are no best cameras but there are _definitely_ better
photographers. Ones who can learn to bring the best out of their
equipment.

Personally I found the Nikon D70S to be a great camera because
for one it can take nice pictures and handles well. I tried it out
for about 15 minutes in the store. The best part was that it has 2
dials ... that makes it _very_ convenient to use. And it is so easy
to grip it ... with the EOS350D I always ended up digging a hole
into the lense bellow. In EOS I have to press a button before I
can dial in the Aperature ...

The thing about SR or IS or whatever. I think spending about 60 to
70 £ on a tripod and remote release can give all the stabilisation I
would need.

I read Mike Johnston's review. It says its "perfectly,completely ... okay."

Go through the review closely ... the only thing it brings out is that K100D
is an average camera for a *great* price. But it does say that Canon
in lense IS is better than Pentax. It does also say that body driven lens
are _slower_ than motorized lens. Its great for people who already have
Pentax lens.

So it turns out to be a great camera just because of the pricing.

The anti-dust thingy ... looking at it practically ... its a fancy feature but
may loose its worth. I think nothing comes close to getting the camera
serviced by competent technicians.

But these are _my_ personal views and may differ from eveybody else's.


So ... what camera I will eventually buy ? Not sure right now. My heart says
Nikon D70s. The EOS350D is a great Camera but I wont buy anything from
Canon as long as it is in the same size. The bigger Canons are much better
but ... the price is too high

Hmmm ... sorry for confusing you all.

Cheers,
--
Gaggu
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Old Aug 31, 2006, 10:04 AM   #43
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Before you guys decide to string me up, I think you had better know a few things. I arrived home at 9:00pm local time last night after doing an all day workshop and driving 5 hours to get to it and return. I have another today and one day left to pack.

I tried to be helpful and pulled sample files, that students and demo files I hadtaken and processed for use with a projector. Then I took the time the time to mount them all together for you. Those are not serious test photos and I said that. I posted a make do sampling. So take it easy and don't murder the bearer of the message.

Ithink I will make in a policy not to post sample photos again when Ihave the time to take them myself. I was honestly just attempting to be helpful, and I had clearly indicated that they were not "test" photos, but photos pulled from files.

MT

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Old Aug 31, 2006, 10:27 AM   #44
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Code:
 KMs are one of the best low light, low noise cameras in it's class and you get Image Stabilization in every lens. By class, I am referring to sensor size, since the only way to improve on picture quality might be with a camera that has a larger sensor. Another thing KM has an edge on is the ergonomics. It is tuff to find a camera as comfortable to hold.
I don't think KM dSLRs are the best at high ISO performance. The Nikon D70s has better high ISO performance than the KM 7D.

Regarding the AS feature, I agree that it is an advantage. However, I prefer good quality high ISO photos than AS feature with not very good high ISO performances.

Code:
I never place my faith entirely on reviews. Reviews are subjective and we don't know what the biases of the reviewer are or if there are any financial considerations involved. Test results if done properly in controlled conditions are good, but we rarely see such comparisons. Even then, buildtolerences and quality control variances are such thatcomparisons may vary between the same models and or lenses.
I disagree that reviews are subjective. Especially for reviews like dpreview's.

Those reviewers are the professionals for the job (They were made for the job). They have no time to be bias towards cameras. (Only users/owners can)

What they are doing is running all the cameras through the sametest and then results. That's it, there is no time for being bias.

The better cameras will be getting a higher rating or test results that's all. In fact, it is all very objective.

For example, how can the reviewers lie about the Nikon D50, D70s, EOS 20D, and the EOS 350D regarding high ISO performance??? (Everyone will be studying the displayed test results/samples you see). Even if the reviewers decided to be bias towards camera x, the test and results will have to tell the truth. (Especially true when there are side by side comparisons; where things gets obvious)

Since there are no definite/constant ways of telling the quality, performance, andvalues of the cameras, it is essential that there are professional reviews such as dpreview to give anobjective insideand test of those cameras for (potential buyers) like me to observe. (Or others)

The review (A professional one that must be) will serve as the primary guidance to the potential buyer of the camera. Usually the reviewer will state the type of category the camera is targeted at, the type ofclass levelthe camera belongs to,they will state whatother options to consider, how value for money it is compared to theothers,reasons and etc...

All in all, I think the main reviews are the ones that are objective whereabout user opinions can be rather bias sometimes. Nevertheless, I still value user opinions regardless. (Sometimes I like to see how the users opinions/reviews compares toa professionalreview)

Sometimes it is also good to consult users/owners of the camerasto double check after reading a main review. (Some users are willing to admit that their cameras have certain short comings; they can then confirm what a reviewer state). OR (very rarely) they might be able to tell you where the reviewer went wrong. (This is usuallythe exceptional case).

BTW, dpreview always seems to cover everything about the cameras they review; usuallyevenuntil certain aspects that the user might never encounter in his or her usage. So as you can see, dpreview is a very extensive review site and it is very likely theycan actuallytell us more then we can ever tell them. Those reviewers and their team have sophisticated softwares to really test the cameras out, so I can be very sure there is a pure objectivity in their test.

No matter what, pure human test resultscan vary whereabout test carried out by machines/softwares are going to be consistent throughout (especially true for the real review date where the team will make sure everything is in working order)














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Old Aug 31, 2006, 10:45 AM   #45
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Really sorry MT for getting all this started ...

I didn't really intended to use your posts as a flamebait but ... sorry again :roll:

mtclimber wrote:
Quote:
Before you guys decide to string me up, I think you had better know a few things. I arrived home at 9:00pm local time last night after doing an all day workshop and driving 5 hours to get to it and return. I have another today and one day left to pack.

I tried to be helpful and pulled sample files, that students and demo files I hadtaken and processed for use with a projector. Then I took the time the time to mount them all together for you. Those are not serious test photos and I said that. I posted a make do sampling. So take it easy and don't murder the bearer of the message.

Ithink I will make in a policy not to post sample photos again when Ihave the time to take them myself. I was honestly just attempting to be helpful, and I had clearly indicated that they were not "test" photos, but photos pulled from files.

MT
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Old Aug 31, 2006, 12:21 PM   #46
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BenjaminXYZ wrote:
Quote:
Code:
 KMs are one of the best low light, low noise cameras in it's class and you get Image Stabilization in every lens. By class, I am referring to sensor size, since the only way to improve on picture quality might be with a camera that has a larger sensor. Another thing KM has an edge on is the ergonomics. It is tuff to find a camera as comfortable to hold.
I don't think KM dSLRs are the best at high ISO performance. The Nikon D70s has better high ISO performance than the KM 7D.

Regarding the AS feature, I agree that it is an advantage. However, I prefer good quality high ISO photos than AS feature with not very good high ISO performances.

Code:
I never place my faith entirely on reviews. Reviews are subjective and we don't know what the biases of the reviewer are or if there are any financial considerations involved. Test results if done properly in controlled conditions are good, but we rarely see such comparisons. Even then, buildtolerances and quality control variances are such thatcomparisons may vary between the same models and or lenses.
I disagree that reviews are subjective. Especially for reviews like dpreview's.

Those reviewers are the professionals for the job (They were made for the job). They have no time to be bias towards cameras. (Only users/owners can)

What they are doing is running all the cameras through the sametest and then results. That's it, there is no time for being bias.

The better cameras will be getting a higher rating or test results that's all. In fact, it is all very objective.

For example, how can the reviewers lie about the Nikon D50, D70s, EOS 20D, and the EOS 350D regarding high ISO performance??? (Everyone will be studying the displayed test results/samples you see). Even if the reviewers decided to be bias towards camera x, the test and results will have to tell the truth. (Especially true when there are side by side comparisons; where things gets obvious)

Since there are no definite/constant ways of telling the quality, performance, andvalues of the cameras, it is essential that there are professional reviews such as dpreview to give anobjective insideand test of those cameras for (potential buyers) like me to observe. (Or others)

The review (A professional one that must be) will serve as the primary guidance to the potential buyer of the camera. Usually the reviewer will state the type of category the camera is targeted at, the type ofclass levelthe camera belongs to,they will state whatother options to consider, how value for money it is compared to theothers,reasons and etc...

All in all, I think the main reviews are the ones that are objective whereabout user opinions can be rather bias sometimes. Nevertheless, I still value user opinions regardless. (Sometimes I like to see how the users opinions/reviews compares toa professionalreview)

Sometimes it is also good to consult users/owners of the camerasto double check after reading a main review. (Some users are willing to admit that their cameras have certain short comings; they can then confirm what a reviewer state). OR (very rarely) they might be able to tell you where the reviewer went wrong. (This is usuallythe exceptional case).

BTW, dpreview always seems to cover everything about the cameras they review; usuallyevenuntil certain aspects that the user might never encounter in his or her usage. So as you can see, dpreview is a very extensive review site and it is very likely theycan actuallytell us more then we can ever tell them. Those reviewers and their team have sophisticated softwares to really test the cameras out, so I can be very sure there is a pure objectivity in their test.

No matter what, pure human test resultscan vary whereabout test carried out by machines/softwares are going to be consistent throughout (especially true for the real review date where the team will make sure everything is in working order)
I think you need to read before you write. I did not say KM was the best, I said one of the best. There is a differnce.... Doesn't one of the best leave room for a few cameras and not just one? As far as the D70 having better ISO performance than the 7D... assuming that is true it is marginal an insignificant. That is my opinion and you are certainly entitled to disagree with any and all of anyone's opinions, but make sure you understand what someone writes before you jump to disagree.

You state that though you agree thatthe AS feature,is an advantage. However, you prefer good quality high ISO photos overASwith not very good high ISO performances. If you are implying the KM's have poor high ISO performance, you couldn't be farther from the truth. If you made that as a general statement about cameras in general, than that is a differnt story.

I didn't say all reviews were bad, I said I don't place my faith entirely on reviews. As far as you disagreeing that reviews are subjective... that is simply your opinion and you are entitled to one, but I want to make certain that it is understood to be no more or less than that. Your opinions, can't posibbly amount to fact and should you choose to believe otherwise that does not make it so.There was a time when I used to look at the world through rose coloredglasses and I thought I knew eveything, but now that I'm older and hopefully wiser,my philosophy has changed to waht I consider to be an improvement. I know that you have no basis or proof that any review is 100 percent on the money. That is not my opinion... that is an absolute.If you want to believe that reviewers have no time to be bias or can't be influenced by external factors.... be my guest, but don't insult my intelligence and possibly the intelligence of others by debating myopinions and insisting yours are completely correct. You keep stating everything in most of your posts as fact because you read it somewhere and you seem willing to place your faith in the hands of reviewer simply because you believe it's his duty to be accurate. I haveto wonder if you would be so quick to place your life in the hands of a doctor. Are they notprofessionals for the job they do?Usining your logic in this anaolgy we have to conclude that they were made for their job. Surely, they have no time to be bias in the manner in which they recommend treatment but yet they are sometimes wrong and sometimes people die. If my analogy seems off topic or dramatic, it is just to illustrate the point that everyone is human regardless of profession. Yes... we have to consider that human error factors can be a part of a camera review. Yes, we have to consider that reviewers can be unethical and manipulate results.


I was not suggesting thatvalid testswhen done properly under controlled conditions don't have the merits. Not all tests are done that way and many reviews are not side by side comparisons of every make and model. I read the reviews too As I said before....buildtolerances and quality control variances are such thatcomparisons may vary between the same models and or lenses. So let me see.... if a reviewer has a unit that is less than perfect that won't affect the test. By the way....tell me that you believe thatconclusionary statements in a review are not subjective.

Sorry but I don't lean on tests resultsand reviews like a drunk would lean on a lamp post for support.That is because I value the opinion of others that have been there and done that. You see, I have to pick the brains ofpeople I trust and communicate openly. People that have used equipment over time and provide feedback unattainable by any means through a short term review.

Sorry but photography is more than which is the best camera, the best ISO, or the best lens.These cameras are all good in their own way and we all are entitled to our opinions, perceptionsand preference as to which one we view as being best.

I can take anyone of the DSLRs including the ones tested as the poorestin any category and take great pictures. Why??? because I'm a photographer. I don't need the best high ISO camera to take good pictures, though Istill saythe KMs are one of the best low light, low noise cameras in theirclass. Don'tforget Image Stabilization with every lens which allows the shooter to use a slower mix of shutter and aperture so as not to rely on higher noisier ISOs or to take pictures that are not normally possible. Sure you can add IS to the camerawith certain lenses if they make one in the range you want and you like the idea of donating your arms and legs to pay for them. I didn't buythe KM because of its bells and whistles, I bought it because at the time itwas the best toolfor the job with the most bang for the buck. I can state with firm conviction that I know I made the best choice for my needs. That doesn't mean I bought the best camera in the world. I just bought what is right for me. We allmake choices and then we live them or we moveon.







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Old Aug 31, 2006, 12:58 PM   #47
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Wow, what a long post...:shock:

I agree that the KM 7D is one of the best low light performer. It was my bad.

I also agree with your last section about all the cameras being great. But do keep in mind that the potential buyer might be wanting to get the best (In his or her own eyes). Sometimes a buyer might be looking for the best high ISO performance or best per-pixel sharpness etc...It is like that, we can't stop them from doingso (because it is their $$$$) and I can feel how they feel; they want to be assured that they have spend their $$$$ wisely. In fact, I was also in such a situation before;

People keep telling me that all the dSLRs are great cameras and I do agree with them, but sometimes I am also curious to know which one of them can offer me the highest image quality or bestfunctions etc...I also want to spend my money wisely you see.

I also understand the Pentax owners...If I have a few Pentax lens laying around, I will surely consider a Pentax dSLR regardless of what is out there. I definitely don't want the Pentax lenses to go to a waste if I went for another brand...

Pentax dSLRs are great dSLRs and I will surely consider them if I already have (even one) Pentax lens around. However, I am now starting out empty handed so I have plenty of other choices out there.

The best I can do now is to compare.

I know existing dSLR owners hate to see comparisons being made and I can feel that too. Maybe I should just stop comparing...anyway I have already made up my mind so you don't need to worry. I will still continue to give newbie advices in here though...

I also agree that everyone should be getting what's best for them. (Best is purely subjective in this case...)

But sometimes we have to admit that certain cameras have true/native best features! :-)

Pentax IST DS2/Samsung GX-1S: Best TTL viewfinder (Pentaprism viewfinder with .95x magnification) It remains true whoever uses it! :idea:












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Old Aug 31, 2006, 2:39 PM   #48
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I'm pretty much a newbie when it comes to SLRs. I almost bought the E-500, but didn't for the following reasons:

-The sensor appears to be quite noisy at higher ISOs

-There are few economical lens choices available. I don't want to spends hundreds and hundreds on lenses when i'm still new to SLR.

-The 4/3rds system uses a sensor that is physically smaller than most other comparable sensors. In addition to noise, you also need to multiply 35mm focal lengths 2x instead of 1.5x (for the K100D, 7D, D50and others). This means that getting a wide angle will be expensive

-The build quality on the E-500 was less than impressive. Other cameras (i'm sure this is the case with the K100) are usually smaller slighly less expensive versions of more expensive models. The body of the E-500 seems totally different than the more expensive Olympus models.

If I was giving up the Anti-Shake, i'd rather look a Rebel XT (should be lots of good deals now that the XTi is coming out). It has a cleaner sensor, and more lens options available.

Keep in mind with an SLR you're not just buying a camera, you're buying into the "system" or lenses and other dedicated accessories. If you end up with a nice collection of lenses, changing the body in a few years won't be a big deal. Changing systems later on means changing bodies AND lenses.

-I'm assuming that the kit lens that comes with the K100D is the DA 18-55mm, which is quite nice for a kit lens. It has decent build quality and seems like a good value. I briefly played with the lens on the E-500, and wasn't impressed.

-The K100D's Anti-Shake means that you'll have it available with every lens. Even the cheap ones you find on eBay. Price a few C/N lenses w/Image Stabilizers and you'll see how valuable it is to have this feature in the body.

-The K100D is a new model, I wouldn't be surprised if the E-500 gets superceded by something else.
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Old Aug 31, 2006, 6:37 PM   #49
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intence wrote:
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I'm pretty much a newbie when it comes to SLRs. I almost bought the E-500, but didn't for the following reasons:

-The sensor appears to be quite noisy at higher ISOs

-There are few economical lens choices available. I don't want to spends hundreds and hundreds on lenses when i'm still new to SLR.

-The 4/3rds system uses a sensor that is physically smaller than most other comparable sensors. In addition to noise, you also need to multiply 35mm focal lengths 2x instead of 1.5x (for the K100D, 7D, D50and others). This means that getting a wide angle will be expensive

-The build quality on the E-500 was less than impressive. Other cameras (i'm sure this is the case with the K100) are usually smaller slighly less expensive versions of more expensive models. The body of the E-500 seems totally different than the more expensive Olympus models.

If I was giving up the Anti-Shake, i'd rather look a Rebel XT (should be lots of good deals now that the XTi is coming out). It has a cleaner sensor, and more lens options available.

Keep in mind with an SLR you're not just buying a camera, you're buying into the "system" or lenses and other dedicated accessories. If you end up with a nice collection of lenses, changing the body in a few years won't be a big deal. Changing systems later on means changing bodies AND lenses.

-I'm assuming that the kit lens that comes with the K100D is the DA 18-55mm, which is quite nice for a kit lens. It has decent build quality and seems like a good value. I briefly played with the lens on the E-500, and wasn't impressed.

-The K100D's Anti-Shake means that you'll have it available with every lens. Even the cheap ones you find on eBay. Price a few C/N lenses w/Image Stabilizers and you'll see how valuable it is to have this feature in the body.

-The K100D is a new model, I wouldn't be surprised if the E-500 gets superceded by something else.
I like the E-500 very much but the points made here are true. Canon and Nikon build exceptional cameras and lenses but on a budget the Pentax K100D gives the most economical package with lots of used lenses available, some of the best wide angle new lenses, and the shake reduction.

I have used dSLRs from all of the major companies, I even had an oportunity to at least handle the Sony A100. Mtclimber (Sarah) has first hand experience with the major entry level cameras and I notice that she is quite excited by the K100D. Professional reviewers have a camera for a week or two, often juggling three or four different cameras at the same time. Sarah uses the cameras on a regular basis in teaching her course, I respect her opinion because it is based on actual long term experience.

When I am in the presence of experienced people I listen, question and learn, not contradict and dismiss.

intence, very good points very well presented.

Good job

Ira
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Old Aug 31, 2006, 8:44 PM   #50
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Wow!!! Some of these recent threads have gotten a bit lengthy with alot of info passed along, alot of reviews refered to, alot of tests quoted and many opinions expressed. And we are exactly where we started....no clear winner, no clear best camera. The reason is because there isn't. Those reviews and tests are subjective. You can't do reasonable comparisons because there are too many variables that go into the final image, many of which have little to do with the camera body itself (the lens, post work, even the monitor YOU are using to read/look at the review). Sure you can get an idea, but the differences are minute. These tests aren't absolute. It takes more than a week or a month (or however long reviewers get with the camera) to learn all the ins and outs about how to get the most out of it. And certainly, if you read enough reviews, you will see conclusions proclaiming each camera to be the best. Just look at the cover of Pop Photography every month. Most users will never be able to (or even want to) get the very best out of it, and are more than most people will ever need. All of this coupled with the fact that most users are fanatical about their gear, and it's easy to see why the water is so muddy.

I still say you must go out and handle each camera to see how it feels and how easy it is for you to use. A camera that is uncomfortable or not easy to use will not get used often. Reviews cannot tell you how a camera feels to you, and neither can I. The differences really are minute...every experienced user that frequents this forum has said this (many, many, many times). At this level of camera, results depend on the user, not the camera. And what is easiest to use (for you, not the reviewers) will yield the best results.




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